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A Moscow court has banned Facebook and Instagram as “extremist” organizations

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Re: A Moscow court has banned Facebook and Instagram as “extremist” organizations

#101

Post by zahllos »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #25
Gupie wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apart from Trump and Brexit.

I guess you're right, plus a number of far-right phenomena in the EU that were also partly caused and sponsored by Russian campaigns such as the AfD, Pegida, Front National, Lega Nord, etc. I should have said "are failing now."

I would disagree on brexit. Am British and brexit sentiment predated the campaign by quite some time. Also many people eligible to vote for this and holding such anti EU positions were elderly, so if the Russian influence campaign was entirely online they would all have missed it.

Maybe Russia funded some campaigns, not sure. Maybe they were able to sway some voters, again, not sure. But my impression is that there was already a sizeable portion of the population pro brexit. I'd be more inclined to lay this at the feet of Murdoch than Putin.

Re: A Moscow court has banned Facebook and Instagram as “extremist” organizations

#102

Post by mrits »

yucky wrote: post #90
mrits wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FB did not "play into their hands". Facebook made a sane decision that most corporations are incapable of making. You don't want to ban Ukrainians for talking about killing Russian soldiers, it should be encouraged.

Counterpoint - encouraging the average Ukrainian to "kill Russian soldiers" puts their lives at risk as well since the Russian soldiers are better armed. And lets say they get geeked up and start firing into the street form an apartment building, to which the Russians respond by launching a missile into and killing others who weren't trying to engage the soldiers. The sane response would be to consistently call for n…

You certainly fall into the category of good men that do nothing. The rest of us will fight to preserve the freedoms we have and those of others.

Re: A Moscow court has banned Facebook and Instagram as “extremist” organizations

#103

Post by rendall »

pphysch wrote: post #97
rendall wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OPs claim is that allowing violent rhetoric against the Russian army is anti-Russian. True or not, how "Western governments would respond to" allowing violent rhetoric against US soldiers, isn't relevant to that claim. And, no, violent rhetoric against an invading national army is not equivalent to violent rhetoric against an ethnicity. The idea is offensive.

> And, no, violent rhetoric against an invading national army is not equivalent to violent rhetoric against an ethnicity. The idea is offensive. Logically, you are correct. In reality, people aren't so logical. They see Russia, they see red. There has been a massive explosion of outright russophobia across the West since the war started.

You could argue that the effects of allowing violent rhetoric against an invading army is tantamount to allowing violent rhetoric against an ethnicity. Then we can have something to discuss. I would disagree, but it's not untrue.

What OP said is that violent rhetoric against an ethnicity (Russians) is allowed, which is not true.

You are of course aware that russophobia against ethnic Russians was the pretense by which Russia invaded Ukraine the first time. It was reprehensible then to conflate ethnic violence with nationalistic expansionist rationalizations, and it is reprehensible now.

Re: A Moscow court has banned Facebook and Instagram as “extremist” organizations

#104

Post by freedomben »

rendall wrote: post #103
pphysch wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And, no, violent rhetoric against an invading national army is not equivalent to violent rhetoric against an ethnicity. The idea is offensive. Logically, you are correct. In reality, people aren't so logical. They see Russia, they see red. There has been a massive explosion of outright russophobia across the West since the war started.

You could argue that the effects of allowing violent rhetoric against an invading army is tantamount to allowing violent rhetoric against an ethnicity. Then we can have something to discuss. I would disagree, but it's not untrue . What OP said is that violent rhetoric against an ethnicity (Russians) is allowed, which is not true. You are of course aware that russophobia against ethnic Russians was the pretense by whi…

You keep repeating variations of this:

> What OP said is that violent rhetoric against an ethnicity (Russians) is allowed, which is not true.

No, that's NOT what I said. And you should know this, as I already told you at least once: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30755880

What I actually said:

> Before we all pile on Russia, if you aren't aware of the rule change that FB made to allow violent statements against Russians (but not against any other group), you should learn about that.

I consider members of the Russian military (who, by the way, are mostly there by force, not free choice) to still be Russians. Unless you want to turn my statement into a strawman that you can easily knock down, then you should be making the argument that members of the Russian military aren't Russians.

Re: A Moscow court has banned Facebook and Instagram as “extremist” organizations

#105

Post by Gupie »

zahllos wrote: post #101
jonathanstrange wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you're right, plus a number of far-right phenomena in the EU that were also partly caused and sponsored by Russian campaigns such as the AfD, Pegida, Front National, Lega Nord, etc. I should have said "are failing now."

I would disagree on brexit. Am British and brexit sentiment predated the campaign by quite some time. Also many people eligible to vote for this and holding such anti EU positions were elderly, so if the Russian influence campaign was entirely online they would all have missed it. Maybe Russia funded some campaigns, not sure. Maybe they were able to sway some voters, again, not sure. But my impression is that there w…

I agree that there was already a sizeable portion of the population pro brexit, but it referendum was close, 50% to 48%, and it would not have taken much to push it either way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_20....

Re: A Moscow court has banned Facebook and Instagram as “extremist” organizations

#106

Post by JumpCrisscross »

Dharmat55 wrote: post #80
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Technically, they are not wrong They are absolutely, technically and materially, wrong. Calls to arms to resist an invader is close to the opposite of extremism. It’s survival. A correcting force back towards the status quo. Extremism, by definition, seeks to change the status quo.

Politely pointing out that your argument also justifies any and all White nationalist extremism in Europe, North America, Oceania, etc in opposition to demographic replacement.

> your argument also justifies any and all White nationalist extremism in Europe, North America, Oceania, etc in opposition to demographic replacement

Demographic replacement is analogised by these groups to invasion. What’s happening in Ukraine lays bare the emptiness of that analogy. Immigrants don’t bring their tanks and air force.

Re: A Moscow court has banned Facebook and Instagram as “extremist” organizations

#107

Post by yucky »

mrits wrote: post #102
yucky wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint - encouraging the average Ukrainian to "kill Russian soldiers" puts their lives at risk as well since the Russian soldiers are better armed. And lets say they get geeked up and start firing into the street form an apartment building, to which the Russians respond by launching a missile into and killing others who weren't trying to engage the soldiers. The sane response would be to consistently call for n…

You certainly fall into the category of good men that do nothing. The rest of us will fight to preserve the freedoms we have and those of others.

Correction, I fall into the category of people who think the US probably should never have helped finance and foment the coup in 2014, picked our guy to lead Ukraine after the coup, and then rewrite the Constitution specifically to put NATO expansion on the menu knowing it would antagonize Russia.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

And that's not to absolve Putin, but if I pay a guy to wrestle a wild grizzly bear because I want to piss the bear off, then I deserve some of the blame because the bear just did what bears do. And the guy who wrestled the bear should have known better too.

Re: A Moscow court has banned Facebook and Instagram as “extremist” organizations

#108

Post by tyrfing »

pphysch wrote: post #100
splix wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the "Wagner" by itself is a reference to Richard Wagner which is commonly associated with Nazy Germany [1]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_controversies

That is an absurd guilt by association. Hitler does not own all references to a composer that he enjoyed posthumously. By your logic, the Nexus Institute and its guests are neo-Nazis because they had a Wagner-themed round table discussion. https://prometheanartists.com/new-events/2019/11/9/nexus-ins...

It disproves your original statement of "1 unverified image". There's much more, and there's certainly no reason to think it's a coincidence the guy chose a callsign with clear Nazi symbolism.

Good luck keeping this up if you admit Rusich has anything to do with Wagner.

Re: A Moscow court has banned Facebook and Instagram as “extremist” organizations

#109

Post by vmception »

vmception wrote: post #30
MAGZine wrote: post #4

Something tickles me about how the country with reputation for disinformation was so quick to ban Facebook and Instagram. What do they know?

Municipal court cases are never news. A municipal court for a district in Russia is just clickbait.

Feel free to correct me if i have it wrong

Re: A Moscow court has banned Facebook and Instagram as “extremist” organizations

#110

Post by pphysch »

tyrfing wrote: post #108
pphysch wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is an absurd guilt by association. Hitler does not own all references to a composer that he enjoyed posthumously. By your logic, the Nexus Institute and its guests are neo-Nazis because they had a Wagner-themed round table discussion. https://prometheanartists.com/new-events/2019/11/9/nexus-ins...

It disproves your original statement of "1 unverified image". There's much more, and there's certainly no reason to think it's a coincidence the guy chose a callsign with clear Nazi symbolism. Good luck keeping this up if you admit Rusich has anything to do with Wagner.

It does not prove anything. It is an evidence-free attempt at guilt by association.

The only "evidence" I have seen to support the claim that Wagner is a neo-Nazi org is a single bizarre selfie of a Nazi-tattoo covered guy that some Western media alleged is the founder of Wagner. Again, most likely just misinformation.

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