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I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

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Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#911
I’m not sure how a “collapse” is supposed to happen.

The reason everything remains awful is because everyone is already acting in their best interest. The employers want the elite students, the elite students want degrees from elite universities, and all the other students want to look as close to “elite” as possible (by attending the most elite institution available to them)

Unless you tell motivated and well-connected teenagers they’re not allowed to attend Harvard or Yale, the prestige signal of Harvard and Yale will continue to live on, as yet another class of motivated and well connected 22 year olds graduate.

Short of government action (like make it illegal to discriminate in hiring based on which institution you graduated from?) I don’t see how that prestige signal (or the structure of incentives associated) goes away

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#912

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People repeat that but what is it based on? Most of the population, including most people who have economic stability and freedom, have not had STEM jobs and very likely will not have STEM jobs. What generation? In my parents' generation, a secretary could get good health insurance for their family and retire with a pension. Today, someone new hired into that role would struggle to afford rent or health insurance f…

There just aren't enough STEM jobs to cover a fraction of people with financial stability. > a secretary could get good health insurance for their family and retire with a pension. Today, someone new hired into that role would struggle to afford rent or health insurance for just themselves, and retirement is out of the question. While I agree that wages haven't advanced outside of a the very few, secretaries aren't a…

and global competition for labor

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#913
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the SAT is increasingly considered "racist" because it reveals racial disparities in learning Could you provide an example of that claim? Usually the SAT is considered discriminatory because the way the testing is done favors wealthy, well-educated people, and gives negative results for equally talented people who lack those advantages. Colleges have found that the SAT is excluding a large part of the talent pool.…

SAT math scores combined with GPA are 5 times more predictive than gpa alone at Berkeley. They also found the test was more predictive for low income students

For the SAT the difference between winning and losing in college admission is if you can prepare for it. It's not a test you take cold. That is the biggest issue with it so it advantages those with more resources.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#914
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SAT math scores combined with GPA are 5 times more predictive than gpa alone at Berkeley. They also found the test was more predictive for low income students

SAT correlates well with college performance and moreover must be used to obtain the best college performance predictors we have (or something highly correlated with SAT).

Some elite law schools did a study where they admitted underprivileged students with bad LSAT scores and guess what, those students did great and got great jobs.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#915

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is so refreshing to see this take. I was on a path to be a history Ph.D candidate - I wanted to teach, and archive diving is basically my own personal drug. The problem is it’s “publish or perish,” as we all know. My higher priority, i.e. teaching, was essentially an obstacle. You know how I know that? My own advisor and other department members told me not to get my doctorate (after writing a 60 page thesis mind…

I didn’t find out until many years after graduating that the US is sprinkled with what are known as Primarily Undergraduate Institutions (PUIs), including a large number of well-regarded 4-year colleged which don’t have graduate programs, the professors don’t do (much) research (but do have PhDs generally) and the hiring and evaluation decisions are 90% based on teaching. These institutions are usually on the small s…

That's the sort of institution I went to and got my engineering degree from it. It was great to actually get face time with Professors and have discussions with them. Plus, I got to study more than just engineering, which was huge for someone like me who enjoys literature and philosophy as well as the sciences.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#916
post #312

Higher education in the US is trying to fulfill so many roles it's unsustainable. - teaching marketable skills so people can get jobs - teaching "how to think" and learning about art and culture - Performing cutting edge research - minor league sports teams The large state schools are trying to fulfill all these conflicting roles. We should probably break them out to separate entities. If you have a physicist who's a…

Research pays for itself with grants. That's not a conflict

Sports teams in theory pay for themselves with revenue. That's a matter of accounting and debate, but in theory it's just recreation. It's not really a conflict.

Marketable skills vs "how to think" is basically the domain of knowledge you study. Want more skills? pick that major. These can all coexist in the same institution and have for 100s? 1000s? of years.

The issue is the financing, facilities bloat, marketing on the basis of non-academics, inabiility to properly measure academic value, class paranoia, and the rise of the vampire administration class has blown out the cost of a high-reputation degree by a factor of 10.

Universities used to do its core activities/competencies with much less opulent housing, unnecessary buildings, basic auditoriums and rooms, basic labs. I'll put aside research here since grants will fund the facilities they need to do the research. Sports teams should theoretically self-fund their own facilities.

The issue is the bloated cost vs the value of the degree.

What the country needs is high-reputation high-value degrees from very modest/focused institutions. Like military-style boot camps (in terms of austerity, not authoritarianism) where you are focused on the mission of gaining knowledge and not about living in a cool dorm room, watching a good football team, drinking to oblivion. Those are ancillary, they can be there, but they can't be the focus.

That comes down to the institution mission, and selecting students in the right way.

Colleges used to be based on the quality of the people that come out of the institution. Now they are too broadly graded on non-academic and non-performance.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#917

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although I'm glad it worked out for you, this sounds like a very niche case that would fail every single measure of exampination. Neither is working at a FANG company a signal of intelligence.

I know anecdotes are not the singular of data, but I knew plenty of people whose young lives mirrored the OPs. My family had two couch-surfing classmates (at different times). Neglectful parents are common.

Neglectful parents don’t have to also kick one out of the house in order to be neglectful.

There are levels to this. I’m same as OP in terms of “looked like they could’ve gone to MIT” but was born in the wrong family. Ended up going to University of Washington after doing some community college - so it’s not like I went to the worst school in the world. But it was a long journey to get there and I do work at a target company now. Again, a very long journey… That could’ve been changed by just an interview or something else entirely.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#918

I'm concerned that the majority of "should we fix college or should we circumvent college" conversations don't bring up one of the scariest parts of our current economy: STEM jobs are the main viable path for economic stability and freedom. All of the conversations I've seen implicitly assume that this is good, and that the solution to farmer workers (or other low paid workers) escaping poverty is to train them as so…

I don't like how the word STEM gets thrown around because I feel it whitewashes the fact that most of the opportunity is in ad-supported web apps. Anyone trying to work in chemistry or physics finds this out the hard way.

That's the attention-share majority, and it's the majority that gets the most press largely because it's so relevant to the press and to people who read a lot of press (investors, other media), but it's an overstatement to say it's the entirety.

Just looking at some quick stats, a little more than half of all STEM occupations are outside of "Computer Occupations", though that one chunk is by far the largest single chunk. And far from the entirety of "Computer Occupations" is ad-supported web apps.

https://www.rclco.com/publication/2021-stem-job-growth-index...

There are a lot of fucking engineers (traditional engineers - based on the definition of 20-30 years ago) out there, and a great many of them make a solid living off it. Most of them simply do their job in relative obscurity compared to the computer workers these days.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#919

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strong possibility? Like what odds are we talking here?

If you think that decriminalization takes place when a majority of the population is in favor of it, then New York is moving to decriminalize sex work. I'd say that the odds are good.

Folks, let me prove with LOGIC and REASON that all women are prostitutes. DEBATE ME! 1/207

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#920
post #312

Higher education in the US is trying to fulfill so many roles it's unsustainable. - teaching marketable skills so people can get jobs - teaching "how to think" and learning about art and culture - Performing cutting edge research - minor league sports teams The large state schools are trying to fulfill all these conflicting roles. We should probably break them out to separate entities. If you have a physicist who's a…

- Babysitting young adults who are not yet equip to make it in the world
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