3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine • Hacker News Board

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#111

Post by tempnow987 » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 5:11 PM UTC

wffurr wrote: post #40

macspoofing wrote: post #17

If you double-down on renewables, then you double-down on natural gas. Germany decided to close down their nuclear and coal generation, so the only thing that is left is natural gas for base load (and to augment renewable intermittency problems).

Storage, transmission lines, and over provisioning are also alternatives. Still blows my mind that Germany and other countries are closing nuclear facilities though.

Angela Merkal called this a destruction of national property, and they (CDU) extended life of plants 8-14 years. There were 17 plants at the time.

Total production that has been shutdown (baseload power) is around 19,689MW now post fukushima.

They've been able to replace maybe 4MW's with solar at this point? It's kind of mind boggling how much was shut down - the problem this has caused for electrification in germany is significant as now german electric prices are actually very high not low.

Annual contracts for electricity are running 46 cents / kwH which is CRAZY if you want to electrify your country.

France which is right next door, has much more annoying labor laws / high cost of labor is perhaps half that price.

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#112

Post by internet_user » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 5:11 PM UTC

qaq wrote: post #68

tuyguntn wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

instead of banning Russian oil, I would first start with banning sending weapons to Ukraine and demand 240 hours non-stop negotiations to stop the war sooner. 10 days of not leaving anywhere unless consensus has been reached

Consensus on we believe your nation should not exist? Ukraine already once found the consensus of give up worlds 3d largest nuclear arsenal in exchange for security guarantees. It worked out great.

regarding the security guarantees, it appears that memorandum was not legally binding, and provides no real guarantees, as per the US themselves, and pre-2014.

"Regardless, the United States publicly maintains that "the Memorandum is not legally binding", calling it a "political commitment"."[0]

"not legally binding", below.

"Media Statement by the U.S. Embassy in Minsk April 12, 2013 Repeated assertions by the government of Belarus that U.S. sanctions violate the 1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances are unfounded. Although the Memorandum is not legally binding, we take these political commitments seriously and do not believe any U.S. sanctions, whether imposed because of human rights or non-proliferation concerns, are inconsistent with our commitments to Belarus under the Memorandum or undermine them. Rather, sanctions are aimed at securing the human rights of Belarusians and combating the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and other illicit activities, not at gaining any advantage for the United States."[1]

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Securit...

[1]https://web.archive.org/web/20140419030507/http://minsk.usem...

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#113

Post by grobclaw » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 5:11 PM UTC

tluyben2 wrote: post #12

dmitrygr wrote: post #3

Ok, so what is the solution you propose? Quit russian gaz cold turkey, today? Let people in Berlin freeze to death tonight? (Temperatures are 0 degrees C at night)

It is not comfortable but inside houses you do not freeze to death like that. Sleep in your clothes, buy an electric heater next to your bed, get an electric blanket etc. I slept for quite a long time like that in the Netherlands because my mates squat building had no heat. That was during one of the coldest winters where all canals in Amsterdam were frozen enough to skate on. So yeah, not comfortable but freezing to…

It's not clear that the majority of Germans are willing to do that, especially since it wouldn't just end the war right away. I've also heard a politician on German news quote the estimated "few percent GDP decline" as a result of banning gas imports from Russia, which apparantly implies that it's "not possible" ("nicht machbar"). They make it sound like it's on par with breaking the laws of physics and our of their hands...

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#114

Post by antattack » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 5:11 PM UTC

deeviant wrote: post #70

macspoofing wrote: post #17

If you double-down on renewables, then you double-down on natural gas. Germany decided to close down their nuclear and coal generation, so the only thing that is left is natural gas for base load (and to augment renewable intermittency problems).

I was previously ardently against nuclear power, and now I'm staunchly for it. The world needs to be rid of oil, there are few other things that have caused as much human and environment suffering as oil. Hell, I even back bio fuels, as bad as they are, as long we can conclusively show they have a major impact in oil use and aren't just a subsidy handout farmers.

As invasion in Ukraine shows nuclear power plants can be taken hostage, then you're somewhat at the mercy of whomever is controlling it.

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#115

Post by enriquto » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

motoboi wrote: post #46

I wouldn’t doubt, given the nefarious consequences for Germany, that this site is Russian INFOSEC campaign. Germany cannot function without Russian gas right now. Simple there isn’t enough BTU’s. Why did Germany put itself into this strange Russian dependency is also very strange. Perfectly fine and environmentally friendly nuclear power plants for dependency from Russian natural gas. Why?

> I wouldn’t doubt, given the nefarious consequences for Germany, that this site is Russian INFOSEC campaign.

The exact same thing can be said about the policies of the german green party, if you think about it.

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#116

Post by Archelaos » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

mikaeluman wrote: post #91

This has come up many times by now. But the supposed transition to renewable energy in Germany was merely a substitution of natural gas for nuclear power. What bothers me greatly is that Germany still has not come to turns with the fact that they need nuclear power. That is a long and costly investment to make and you need to start right away. LNG can only get you so far and renewable sources just can't provide the e…

Germany does not need nuclear power. This is far too expensive and dangerous. The future is renewable.

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#117

Post by getcrunk » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

wffurr wrote: post #48

tuyguntn wrote: post #34

Quoted post unavailable.

Begs the question, why didn't the world wean off oil and supporting then-repressive regimes 50 years ago. I despair for the species sometimes.

Because petrodollars. https://web.archive.org/web/20140104191101/http://en.m.wikip...

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#118

Post by FDSGSG » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

tuyguntn wrote: post #100

deeviant wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, whataboutism. Neat?

Oh when you expose crime, it is freedom of speech, diversity of opinions right? But when others expose double standards of West (usually politicians) and crime, it is whataboutism right?

Nobody is exposing double standards here. It's simply not hypocrisy to care about the war in Europe, and not care about Saudis killing Yemenis somewhere far away.

This is very obviously not a double standard, as the first one directly affects Europeans in a way which the second one does not.

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#119

Post by internet_user » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

tuyguntn wrote: post #44

tuyguntn wrote: post #34

Quoted post unavailable.

instead of banning Russian oil, I would first start with banning sending weapons to Ukraine and demand 240 hours non-stop negotiations to stop the war sooner. 10 days of not leaving anywhere unless consensus has been reached

wouldn't that bias the conflict strongly in favour of russia, who would simply continue the invasion during the 240 hours?

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#120

Post by bryanlarsen » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

sendfoods wrote: post #63

Does anybody know why Germany isn't really using their domestic gas fields? According to the german EPA equivalent[1] there's enough for 10 years of usage. While I agree with the need to shut off Nordstream I, I am not sure Germany can afford this right now due to historically low gas reserves [2]. I have to disagree with the tone of the statement "We can afford the consequences". Who is "we"? The lower middle class…

> Gas prices are nearly 50% taxed, are they willing to lower it for lower income families? No.

Lowering gas taxes is an effective subsidy for Russia.

They should do something to offset the impact. Something like Canada's carbon tax rebate, for instance. Give the money to consumers rather than indirectly to Russia.