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I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

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Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#711
post #626

Sam Altman makes a lot of grandiose predictions and statements. For example, in 2019 he said “Human radiologists are already much worse than computer radiologists. If I had to pick a human or an AI to read my scan, I’d pick the AI.” [0] However, most people with domain knowledge in this space still would not want their scan not to be read by a human. The AI radiology apps are generally narrowly focused and useful for…

He and others like him really need to just get off Twitter. Get someone to build a VC only Twitter clone, put their garbage opinions there and satisfy the need to post.

>Get someone to build a VC only Twitter clone, put their garbage opinions there and satisfy the need to post.

Already done (LinkedIn clone, but close enough), by an HN user too: https://www.shlinkedin.com/

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Student debt has exploded because notwithstanding their outrageous tax advantages colleges are demonstrably profit maximizing firms. They induce unlimited demand for ever more credentials though a process of continual devaluation and then charge as much as the market will possibly bear through extremely sophisticated price discrimination. Politicians answer to this crisis of rapaciousness is to suggest that the publi…

Let me explain a line of reasoning that would refute the explanation you provide for the ballooning debt. Universities have not generally changed the way they do things, universities have always been the four things OP listed since forever, even when you likely got your degree (assuming you did, or at the very least most of hacker news did), they were those four things too! Therefore, there is no inherent thing to un…

The thing that happened, which you astutely pointed out, is not related to universities at all. What happened has been called cost disease but is perhaps better known as inflation. The trouble with talking about inflation is that the most commonly-reported figures are based on a consumer basket of goods which have seen skyrocketing leaps in productivity which has kept their prices down, relative to everything else. This productivity increase could largely be attributed to advances in technology due to the tech industry. However, if you look at other parts of the economy which are proven to be resistant to automation, you don't see those same productivity increases.

And that's the problem! Go for a haircut and you can see the effect on a micro scale. Hair salons and barbershops have remained almost entirely unchanged for decades, yet the price of a haircut has skyrocketed. Why is that? Because you wouldn't be able to hire any hairdressers at $2/hour. Haircuts are more expensive because hairdressers need more money to live. Rent has gotten more expensive for hairdressers, just as it has for everyone else.

Increases in productivity due to automation have generated vast amounts of new wealth. It's the overall increase in wealth which has driven up real estate prices and the cost of rent. Replace the hairdresser in the above example with a doctor or a lecturer and the situation remains the same. The services of these jobs/professions have become dramatically more expensive because:

a) They cannot be automated to achieve the productivity gains seen in other sectors.

b) If wages in these sectors were to remain flat then they would see an exodus of workers to other sectors.

c) Some costs in life, such as shelter, are fixed by the availability of land. Land is finite but the demand for land continues to grow. This issue has been discussed extensively here on HN but all of the solutions I've seen are temporary. Ultimately, we could turn the entire planet into Coruscant and we would still see rent prices going up!

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think 2 years of schooling and 2 years of working an becoming financially self-sufficient would better prepare people for adulthood than 4 years of schooling. Software development, electrical engineering, and plenty of other tech jobs could be taught in 2 years. Engineering programs are widely considered to be difficult to complete in 4 years. Where do you get 2 years? Also, after my sophomore year in college, I…

One, eliminating a bunch of required courses not relevant to the job would make things go faster. Sure, things like humanities are fun but for many people getting an education it's not worth the cost-benefit analysis. Plenty of people taking on debt going to college to improve their future prospects would be better served Two, I don't think someone needs a full engineering degree to become productive. Writing my own…

> humanities are fun but for many people getting an education it's not worth the cost-benefit analysis

Humanities are more important than STEM. Humanities deal with the world and yourself on issues that aren't quantifiable, which is most of the issues in life and in the world, including at work.

> if our goal is to improve the earning potential of young adults with the minimum financial burden

Again, life is much, much more than jobs - you are much, much more than what you do for some corporation - and early jobs are the least important ones. It's all so absorbed in the corporate perspective: your only value, your existence, is for serving the corporation. And it puts people permanently in that class, as servents rather than as the powerful - the citizens of a democracy, to whom the corporations report.

I think if more people studied the humanities, it would be brazenly obvious. It's craven on the part of the powerful and corporations.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#714
post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Home improvement is a crazy market. A lot of people seem to quote based upon what they think you can afford, which is easy to figure out since they usually do it while standing in your house.

Home improvement is pretty cancerous right now. I get quotes with ~$5k in labor for work that would take me a week to do in the worst case. That’s literally double my rate without considering that working for yourself is tax free. It baffles me that our markets are so inefficient that it’s 125% more effective for me to take time off my ‘highly skilled’ engineering job to do ‘low skilled’ renovation/repair work myself…

> It baffles me that our markets are so inefficient that it’s 125% more effective for me to take time off my ‘highly skilled’ engineering job to do ‘low skilled’ renovation/repair work myself.

I don’t think it’s particularly baffling. A large class of jobs, including the trades and so-called “low skilled” professions, are in very high demand - which indicates that what they do is valuable to a lot of people - and while you could theoretically do their job yourself, many people simply don’t want to “get their hands dirty.”

In my opinion that’s a good thing by the way. People who do jobs that are important for us and few people want to do should be paid accordingly.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#715

Definitely agree that removing the SAT appears to be related to the upcoming supreme court case about affirmative action. COVID was a good reason to delay it for a couple years. But schools are pushing it out further. That makes no sense. It seems the SAT is increasingly considered "racist" because it reveals racial disparities in learning. What's next? Get rid of the driver's license test because it turns that white…

The SAT's past racial bias is still echoing through the nation. There were still test questions based on Very White Things like cotillions and yachting as recently as 40 years ago. The repercussions of those things could be that some person barely missed getting admitted to a university, took a lifetime earnings hit, lived in a poorer town with worse schools, and now their kids who may be very smart and talented also…

The alternative, ""holistic"" admissions process was conceived for the sole reason that colleges were becoming "too Jewish". Today, that same system is being leveraged against Asian Americans, and is now even less transparent and straightforward. It is full of hateful biases and overt racism

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#716

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think access to education is a human right? I find your last paragraph a bit troubling, I agree that becoming a part of the elite does not really have a significance with regards to your own worth. But the USA is not a country that revolves around the middle class, its a country that revolves around the elites. In America not being part of the elite is a failure because the political and economical system is m…

European elite go to American schools. Just like the elite from all around the world. The premise is faulty from the onset. Most ‘top’ European schools are mediocre outside of liberal arts degrees.

Hm, I'd hire a RTWH, Saclay or ETH graduate over a graduate from every single US university anytime. They seem better grounded in reality, look for solutions instead of 'visions' and actually understand math. But that's just me.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> STEM jobs are the main viable path for economic stability and freedom. People repeat that but what is it based on? Most of the population, including most people who have economic stability and freedom, have not had STEM jobs and very likely will not have STEM jobs. More importantly, college is about much more than job training. College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations…

> College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations. Have you ever met someone fresh out of college? Let's be real, if they didn't do something before or during that wasn't college, they are arguably less qualified to do anything than an average person who didn't. Wew, they've memorized how to traverse a graph, or something something roman emperors

Don't worry, they will catch up and exceed the others. Everyone has to start their adult life experience somewhere, and there is prize for doing it sooner. Note who runs the world for the most part.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#718
post #679
post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I was told as a grad student that I've never forgotten is, "Nobody has ever won a Nobel prize for having happy students". At the time, I was struggling to keep up with the marking demands of a new (i.e. This was the first year it was taught) course I was TA'ing. I had around a hundred students and each one was generating 10-20 pages of handwritten lab reports per week. Student writing varied from human type…

Super weird take IMO- I remember reading Feynman talk about how being able to teach was critical to being a great researcher. Similarly it seems that lots of faculty utilize the various experiences and perspectives of their graduate students to advance their own research. Teaching helps give them ideas so to speak.

Being able to teach is very different from the troubles of grading. I do enjoy teaching. But grading is draining and extremely time consuming. The only way it isn't extremely time consuming is to do it in a half assed manner. Which is why that is likely so common. Honestly, being inside academia I think one of the big reasons for grade inflation is simply because the effort it takes to grade seriously (and other academic politics that couple with this create bad incentive structures where you aren't focused on teaching nor on research).

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#719

I'm concerned that the majority of "should we fix college or should we circumvent college" conversations don't bring up one of the scariest parts of our current economy: STEM jobs are the main viable path for economic stability and freedom. All of the conversations I've seen implicitly assume that this is good, and that the solution to farmer workers (or other low paid workers) escaping poverty is to train them as so…

> We really need farm workers, and most of them live in poverty. Do we, though? As a farmer and software developer, I struggle to find enough farm work to do. I'd take on more work if I could. Everyone and their brother wants to be farmers, though, so there is hot competition and a lot of us end up with only a small piece of the pie. Per hour it pays more than software. There just aren't that many hours. I would like…

With respect, OP isn't talking about hobby farms here.

Five acres is a great lifestyle and some nice tax benefits, but not a career.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> STEM jobs are the main viable path for economic stability and freedom. People repeat that but what is it based on? Most of the population, including most people who have economic stability and freedom, have not had STEM jobs and very likely will not have STEM jobs. More importantly, college is about much more than job training. College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations…

We can stand on the shoulders of giants...or go back to feudalism. Also, just because someone is doing a menial work it does not mean that they should not have a access to higher education. Especially since there's not enough of higher valued jobs for everyone. Educated worker has higher job mobility and is able to respond quickly to shifting business needs.

> just because someone is doing a menial work it does not mean that they should not have a access to higher education

I agree completely, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

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