I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears • Hacker News Board

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#391

Post by ceeplusplus » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 1:36 AM UTC

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #248

ceeplusplus wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly what TJ HS (top 1 HS in the US) tried to do to reduce their Asian representation, because Asians were "overrepresented". Standardized tests are a better solution than "holistic" admissions, which bias heavily for students who can afford to go to expensive summer camps, competitions, and volunteer in poor countries. At least standardized tests can be studied for even if you're poor.

There are entire high schools in the New Orleans area whose average scores on standardized tests exceed all but 2-3 students at any public high school in the area. Having people with experience who know the answers because they can understand and teach the problem at a fundamental level is vastly better than any handout workbook.

Or they have kids whose parents have much greater respect for education and work ethic than other high schools.

I got a 99th percentile score on the SAT with just the typical prep books you find on Amazon (which I pirated) and self study and reflection on mistakes. If you keep blaming the system instead of holding people accountable for their own failures those underperforming high schools you mention will never become top scorers.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#392

Post by periphrasis » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 1:36 AM UTC

The problems of higher education not withstanding, I will always be grateful I stumbled into a superb liberal arts education as an undergraduate and I will always feel a little sorry for men like Altman who aren’t even aware that they missed out on anything.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#393

Post by ZephyrBlu » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 1:37 AM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #302

ZephyrBlu wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More importantly, college is about much more than job training. College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations The "preparing to be an adult" value decayed exponentially for me. The first year staying in halls with my peers was extremely valuable. The rest of the years were not so valuable. Also, this value was 95% social. There was very little that uni itself taught me abo…

What did you study? I learned so much, I cannot imagine having only the knowledge and intellectual skills that I had from high school.

I studied mechanical engineering and a bit of CS, though I didn't complete the degree. I work as a SWE now.

Regarding knowledge and intellectual skills, the vast majority of my knowledge gained in the last ~5 years has been from self-teaching or exploring things I found interesting and I think I developed far more intellectual skills from doing that than going to university.

University felt extremely intellectually restrictive to me. You were given a ton of material that you needed to learn at a surface level to pass tests. There was little room for exploration and deep understanding within courses.

Most of the material did not seem like it was going to be useful for me. I don't like learning for the sake of it, I prefer to try and focus on usefulness.

Why do I need to learn about how to draw structures in isometric and oblique or understand CPU registers when I have absolutely zero interest in those things and never want to do that kind of work?

Because "foundational knowledge" or something, even though the vast majority of people will never use the vast majority of the knowledge they learn. I've asked my friends who completed degrees how much of the information from their degree they use at work and it's practically nothing.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#394

Post by pempem » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 1:38 AM UTC

shagie wrote: post #258

rayiner wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations. Only 2% of Bangladeshis go to college. Are the rest not adults? Indeed, I’d say the opposite is true. Apart from job training, the main function of college in America seems to be extending adolescence and deferring dealing with the real world. 18 year olds in Bangladesh are a lot more “adult” than many college-educated 30-some…

The quote I believe corresponds to "the expected civic responsibilities that an individual has in that society." There are many ways to prepare an individual for that responsibility. In western nations, that is often done more through a formal educational program than through the community and family. This also isn't a "you must have X amount of civic responsibility" as different societies are looking for adults to h…

We talk and I've commented on posts about 'misinformation' 'propaganda' the role of social media and pernicious tentacles of marketing. The amount of surveillance, terrible software promoted as amazing (remember the articles about Shotspotter? or LIDAR? or facial recognition by airlines?)

We're already doing a pretty terrible job educating people and it shows. How much worse does it get when its outsourced to the 'community'? Communities in the US (and everywhere) are fragmented, class stratified, religiously bound structures that we have seen the detriment of when it comes to civic participation. Just check out the IG page of any former evangelical or mormon female.

A secular democracy requires education and time to participate in civic and civil society. That education must imho be grounded in not just how to think, but also the history of humanity. Otherwise we are signing ourselves up for a return to much darker days.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#395

Post by Fomite » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 1:38 AM UTC

"It's hard to know how many of the stories about ridiculous stuff happening on campuses to believe, but even if a small fraction of them are true, these are clearly no longer places hyperfocused on learning."

College students have been protesting things since well before Sam Altman was born.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#396

Post by raldi » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 1:38 AM UTC

nimithryn wrote: post #152

Some of these points are correct. College does seem to be providing less value in the US, etc. Maybe some third-tier universities could be in trouble if there's a decline in college attendance. But, "collapsing"? Universities are one of the most long-lived types of institutions known to humankind. Oxford was founded in 1096. I suspect they will be around quite a lot longer.

Until the 1970’s, college was something some people went to. By the 1980’s, it was something “everyone” did.

A return to the way it was from 1096-1969 would absolutely be properly labeled a collapse.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#397

Post by ZephyrBlu » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 1:38 AM UTC

brightball wrote: post #378

ZephyrBlu wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More importantly, college is about much more than job training. College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations The "preparing to be an adult" value decayed exponentially for me. The first year staying in halls with my peers was extremely valuable. The rest of the years were not so valuable. Also, this value was 95% social. There was very little that uni itself taught me abo…

I think that 95% social is pretty important. I know it was for me. If I knew everything I know now about software after high school I could have gotten a good job, but coming out of high school I was socially completely inept. College accelerated me so much in that regard that I honestly can’t imagine my life without it today.

Yeah absolutely. If it wasn't clear, that social value was extremely helpful for me as well.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#398

Post by tcmart14 » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 1:39 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #326

BlargMcLarg wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not (just) college. Even if you do make it past college, hitting what older generations would consider typical markers of adulthood (having your own place, a good job, a stable relationship, a family, etc.) are all delayed and/or more difficult to achieve. Meanwhile many jobs are trying to sell themselves not through a TC that would let one hit these markers, but through football tables, pizza parties, drinks an…

When I was a teen, teenagers had after school jobs. McDonald's, stores, etc., were populated with teen workers at minimum wage. Today those jobs are held by adults, expecting to be able to raise a family on it. Teenagers rarely have jobs, their first job waits until after they graduate from college.

And adults have always occupied those jobs too. How else did you get McDonalds Breakfast 30 years ago on a Wednesday at 8 AM in October going into the office?

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#399

Post by HarryHirsch » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 1:39 AM UTC

rahimnathwani wrote: post #362

HarryHirsch wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The market for teachers, at least in the US, is not a 'laissez-faire market' Whatever that means. In Alabama the low wages and poor working conditions have now led to a grave teacher shortage. The government's solution? Suspend teacher certification. To use graphic imagery: the talent pool is full of piss, let's open it to the incontinents!

"the talent pool is full of piss" This suggests 'teacher certification' isn't effective at distinguishing between good and bad teachers. "Suspend teacher certification" If 'teacher certification' isn't useful for distinguishing good/bad teachers, then removing the requirement may be a good idea. "In Alabama" It's hard to fire bad teachers in Alabama. If you're a principal in an Alabama public school, you can't just g…

The way to raise standards isn't to lower expectations. But you have to offer something in return, money or job security, either will work, no one will work for free.

And what's this obsession with firing people? You can get rid of subpar performers, but the rapid turnover isn't going to improve the average unless you manage to hire and retain above average performers. In the long run, it's a supply issue, and the revolving door model is going to do nothing about the subpar supply.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#400

Post by gen220 » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 1:39 AM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #312

Higher education in the US is trying to fulfill so many roles it's unsustainable. - teaching marketable skills so people can get jobs - teaching "how to think" and learning about art and culture - Performing cutting edge research - minor league sports teams The large state schools are trying to fulfill all these conflicting roles. We should probably break them out to separate entities. If you have a physicist who's a…

This is a great call-out.

To put it another way, if the university system was a public company, there would be activist shareholders advocating that the company be split. Each of these entities would perform better without the distractions of the others.

One problem with splitting, is that each sub-system has become somewhat parasitic on the other three to a harmful degree, as you hint at. The particular blend depends on the university. For example, NCAA division III teams would not survive without the subsidies of a university. But maybe they shouldn't?