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I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

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Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#301

Post by mgh2 »

honkycat wrote: post #255
mgh2 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it pedigrees that matter or what these signal? Ethics aside, I rather have a smart person in charge rather than the opposite

It signals wealth and an upbringing that meshs with the current c-level staff. this is not controversial to assert. I'm not saying these people are not smart, but they are also definitely rich. My life is great, I am not trying to complain. Elsewhere you asked for proof. There is plenty of proof that income is the best predictor for attending an ivy league school. Here is an article from harvard: https://www.harvardm…

I meant that going to an Ivy League has no correlation to intelligence (no other variables), that was the original argument

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#302

Post by wolverine876 »

ZephyrBlu wrote: post #212
wolverine876 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> STEM jobs are the main viable path for economic stability and freedom. People repeat that but what is it based on? Most of the population, including most people who have economic stability and freedom, have not had STEM jobs and very likely will not have STEM jobs. More importantly, college is about much more than job training. College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations…

> More importantly, college is about much more than job training. College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations The "preparing to be an adult" value decayed exponentially for me. The first year staying in halls with my peers was extremely valuable. The rest of the years were not so valuable. Also, this value was 95% social. There was very little that uni itself taught me abo…

What did you study?

I learned so much, I cannot imagine having only the knowledge and intellectual skills that I had from high school.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#303

Post by WalterBright »

wolverine876 wrote: post #171
mind-blight wrote: post #58

I'm concerned that the majority of "should we fix college or should we circumvent college" conversations don't bring up one of the scariest parts of our current economy: STEM jobs are the main viable path for economic stability and freedom. All of the conversations I've seen implicitly assume that this is good, and that the solution to farmer workers (or other low paid workers) escaping poverty is to train them as so…

> STEM jobs are the main viable path for economic stability and freedom. People repeat that but what is it based on? Most of the population, including most people who have economic stability and freedom, have not had STEM jobs and very likely will not have STEM jobs. More importantly, college is about much more than job training. College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations…

> not to be a resource for corporations

I never went to college to get a STEM degree to be a resource for anybody. I went because I imagined myself being Tom Swift.

Of course, Elon Musk turned into a real life Tom Swift!

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#304

Post by brigandish »

wolverine876 wrote: post #189
yardie wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up a low income student as well but why kind of bullshit were they feeding you? My athlete friends were well aware you needed a 950 for any kind of NCAA consideration. It didn’t matter how good your grades or athleticism if you couldn’t pass that hurdle you were relegated to juco. If anything most of the high school counselors in predominantly poor and black schools just don’t push very hard. They would tell y…

It would be very interesting to hear your personal experience. But how can you make general statements about all poor schools?

He's responding to an anecdote - one that sounds absurd, by the way - so I would say that responding with an anecdote is fine, especially one that actually sounds realistic. Let's hear some anecdotes about being pushed hard in schools based in poor areas before dismissing it.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#305

Post by wolverine876 »

nsonha wrote: post #233
wolverine876 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> STEM jobs are the main viable path for economic stability and freedom. People repeat that but what is it based on? Most of the population, including most people who have economic stability and freedom, have not had STEM jobs and very likely will not have STEM jobs. More importantly, college is about much more than job training. College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations…

> College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations. Most people think college prepares them to be resource for corporation, or some other things. Your college education coincides with your formative years, but from my exp, college has nothing to do with growing as an adult. It's mainly moving out of your hometown and work your part time job and start planning your life.

> Most people think college prepares them to be resource for corporation, or some other things.

They do? And if they do, is it true? Who are we talking about? High school students? People who read HN?

> from my exp, college has nothing to do with growing as an adult. It's mainly moving out of your hometown and work your part time job and start planning your life.

That's too bad. There is so much more going on. What about all the knowledge and critical thinking skills, from science and stats, to addressing the bigger questions in the humanities and social sciences?

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#306

Post by Gibbon1 »

walkhour wrote: post #127
Tretiotrr wrote: post #57

In Germany you study for free. There was a video (perhaps even from kurzgesagt) which describes how critical it is for our society to allow as many people as easy access to knowledge as possible and not only for obvious reasons but also to increase the chance for all of us that the hidden genius is finding a cure for cancer. You can even study for free in Germany as an non German. You know what happens? Those people…

What do you think about German kids being sent to different kinds of highschools at age 10. Most of the people attending Hauptschule don't attend university [0]. In some regions 60% of the children attend it. Aren't you concerned that the person who could discover the cure for cancer is in Hauptschule right now? Imagine a Germany in which the rest of your life isn't determined at age ten. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.o…

In Germany no way would have i have been allowed to go to college. As it was I went to a California State University. Student fees and books cost me about $12k total. Given that there isn't any reason US colleges can't be free other than Wall Street demanding a cut.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#307

Post by glued »

crackercrews wrote: post #52

Definitely agree that removing the SAT appears to be related to the upcoming supreme court case about affirmative action. COVID was a good reason to delay it for a couple years. But schools are pushing it out further. That makes no sense. It seems the SAT is increasingly considered "racist" because it reveals racial disparities in learning. What's next? Get rid of the driver's license test because it turns that white…

I was on track to go to a prestigious university in high school when my fundamentalist christian parents kicked me out of the house at the age of 16. I ended up jumping around to live with different friends then eventually my grandparents. I had no money and thought I had no future. The stress was killing me, my grades and SAT score suffered. I ended up at a small state school in rural Georgia because of this. Today I work at one of the FANG companies but it was a long and challenging struggle to get here. A single test in high school shouldn’t define your long term success. It didn’t in my case but there are many folks who are living through difficulty at that age.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#308

Post by kube-system »

paulpauper wrote: post #275
lordnacho wrote: post #65

The elephant in the room is that college doesn't teach you anything you need to know at a job. I'm not talking about the obvious exceptions like medicine or law (though even that can be done as a conversion rather than an undergrad degree) or anything else where you literally need the paper that says you can do it. I'm also not talking about becoming a researcher, where obvious you need to know a bit of X to become a…

60-70% of the adult population does not have a college degree. There is a huge potential pool of cheap, untapped labor right there. so why aren't more companies biting?

Because college is also a social filter. While some have said that there are highly motivated smart software engineers out there without a college degree, I have never actually seen one. If I did, I would absolutely hire them.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#309

Post by macinjosh »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #162
mind-blight wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The labor market - especially the low paid labor market - is a lot less liquid than it needs to be for pure supply/demand to work in the US (that's also taking human suffering caused by poverty out of the equation, which is pretty callous). Laissez-faire markets are also bad at taking negative externalities into account. Food being too expensive to afford in the stores while it's also rotting in the fields (which has…

> Children not being being effectively taught because teachers are quitting due to burnout and terrible wages is really bad. The market for teachers, at least in the US, is not a 'laissez-faire market'.

Neither is the farm/food market. It is heavily subsidized and regulated by the government to incentivize very specific outcomes.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#310

Post by wolverine876 »

charrondev wrote: post #190
wolverine876 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> STEM jobs are the main viable path for economic stability and freedom. People repeat that but what is it based on? Most of the population, including most people who have economic stability and freedom, have not had STEM jobs and very likely will not have STEM jobs. More importantly, college is about much more than job training. College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations…

> College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations. As If you have to go to college to become an adult. A lot of college programs seem like their purpose is for some very wealthy and sheltered children to become “cultured”, but that is completely unrelated to the skills needed to be a functioning adult or to take significant responsibilities in your life.

> As If you have to go to college to become an adult.

It's sad that so many comments like this are dismissive, and therefore not much reason or argument is put behind them, making them very thin.

You can be an adult with no education or training at all, and for most of human history, that's what happened. Is that our standard? Just 'be' an adult? Why have any schooling?

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