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No is a complete sentence

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Re: No is a complete sentence

#11

Post by ilaksh »

I would almost always have to go with "no, I don't have time, sorry". But even so, there are a lot of jobs or contracts where unfortunately things are basically structured so you really can't just refuse requests and keep the contract. But for people who have good savings and backup plans in case they are fired, it could be really helpful.

Setting aside the exact content of the message, part of the idea at least is really critical. It is really hard to say no to a request. But oftentimes the success (or quality) of one or more projects can depend on it.

These types of interactions where scope is negotiated are probably the hardest part about software engineering and also possibly the most critical.

If I am truly honest with myself, probably almost all projects I have done have been stretched past their real budgets because I felt I had to fulfill some request that was not a real requirement.

Re: No is a complete sentence

#12

Post by nonrandomstring »

tejtm wrote: post #9
nonrandomstring wrote: post #4

Returning a very terse answer to a person who has taken the time to make complex, well reasoned argument/request is rude though. And we all know that. With speech, the trick is to anticipate someone is building up to a "big ask", and cut it short, politely. Otherwise you're letting the other humiliate themself for a long time when you know your answer is going to have to be 'no'. Brevity is occasionally good. A quick…

I understand and agree from an all things being equal perspective. But thing are not all equal. I have worked with folks who could talk circles around a flock of Toastmaster clubs and weaponizing words in meetings relaying on social norms of "civil" as cover happens. The expected 10x effort to counter a falsehood can be inflated to 100x if it is dressed up real pretty. A Volumocracy, where the more verbose or apparen…

> Volumocracy

Nice.

edit: Sorry to come back in edit but you just made me think of something. Britain still has an insidious class system. A top engineer I know, absolutely formidable in mind and manner, said that during a C-level meeting he'd been "outposhed" by some Rupert (apologies to any actual Ruperts).

The tactic is: talk very loudly in a plumby offensively over-confident RP accent, with a slight snorting sneer. Boris Johnson is the paradigmatic example - all the more because he's actually a not-posh kid who got beasted at boarding school into some serious over-compensation.

Re: No is a complete sentence

#13

Post by saghm »

> Let me tell you clearly. “No” is a complete sentence. It requires no explanation or defense.

Why would it matter if it's a complete sentence? If the response was "The fish is yellow at midnight", it would be a complete sentence but an absolutely useless answer, and the response was just nodding their head, that would be reasonable even without any words, let alone a sentence. To put it n programming terms, arguing that a response needs no explanation because it happens to be a grammatically compete sentence (which honestly is a bit questionable in this case) is like saying that the `reverse` method on a list is a valid sorting algorithm because it compiles. It's totally reasonable to express a sorting algorithm in pseudocode that doesn't compile in any real language, and there are obviously a vast number of methods that compile that don't do anything resembling sorting.

Re: No is a complete sentence

#14

Post by jagged-chisel »

If we’re talking about social consent (e.g. drinking, sex), absolutely “no” is a complete sentence. Or perhaps if you’re being asked at work to do something illegal.

But working with others at your employer’s direction requires discussion, explanation, negotiation. “No” alone is a good way to let the employer know you don’t want to work there anymore.

Re: No is a complete sentence

#16

Post by AnimalMuppet »

nineteen999 wrote: post #8
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #5

From an organizational perspective, this is horrible advice: > Let me tell you clearly. “No” is a complete sentence. It requires no explanation or defense. The "It requires no explanation or defense" part is just plain wrong . If someone asks you to do something in an organization, it's fine to say "No", but an explanation is nearly always expected. And this explanation is critical, because often time the answer is s…

It really depends on where the request is coming from. If it's from your manager or another department that depends on you, then sure, an explanation is probably a good idea. Anyone else, well, no. If their issue is important enough, they can escalate it to your manager.

Well... it depends. If it is going to take me 10 minutes? Sure, I can spare 10 minutes to help you out. If it's going to take 10 months? No.

Re: No is a complete sentence

#17

Post by sarchertech »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #5

From an organizational perspective, this is horrible advice: > Let me tell you clearly. “No” is a complete sentence. It requires no explanation or defense. The "It requires no explanation or defense" part is just plain wrong . If someone asks you to do something in an organization, it's fine to say "No", but an explanation is nearly always expected. And this explanation is critical, because often time the answer is s…

I wouldn’t simply say no either, but to be fair their advice was to start with no. Then wait for their reply to determine whether you need to provide a detailed explanation or not. Essentially use their reply to smoke out the people who are going to get angry even if do you give an explanation, so you don’t waste time.

I don’t know if the overlap between those 2 groups (people who get mad at “No” with no explanation, and people who get mad at No with an explanation) is great enough that this advice makes sense (I doubt that it is), but it’s more nuanced that just saying No.

Re: No is a complete sentence

#19

Post by paulpauper »

>Let me tell you clearly. “No” is a complete sentence. It requires no explanation or defense. It is the only thing you need to say when you know you won’t be able to do something no matter how much the other party tries to get you to agree.

lol . if only it were so easy.

Actions of consequences, some of which can be unpleasant.

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