How does someone truly test how this feature is being used without possessing illegal content? This is a nearly-impossible area to research. Frightening. (edit: I'm of course referring to possessing anti-Putin memes) (sarcasm)
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Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?
111–120 of 143 posts
Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?
#112Okay… iOS has had on device image recognition since 2016.
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Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I agree that it’s morally wrong and should be penalized but why is it perceived as the Ultimate Crime? Because children are trafficked and abused to create it SMH...
Child abuse is a real problem and should have considerable resources dedicated to combating it, but focussing on banning images depicting child abuse does nothing to prevent a child from being abused. We're close to a situation where it's safer to abuse children than to try and find images depicting child abuse. I'm pretty sure that focussing on preventing abuse and supporting children to report abuse will do a lot m…
Police arrest child abusers and traffickers all the time... But as long as there's demand for CP people will create it (like many illecit activities), hence trying to reduce the demand (through making consequences for possessing it).
It's funny, comments on this site regularly demonize all sorts of non-consentual images (revenge porn for example) and rightly so but CP is the ultimate non-consentual image - a child doesn't even understand sexuality, isn't sexually mature, never mind able to consent... And there's comments here downplaying it, borderline condoning it...
Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?
#114What's the right number of lives to destroy over false positives from an algorithm? Is it some number other than zero? Why or why not?
What’s the right number of lives to destroy from CSAM? There’s a middle ground between doing nothing and totalitarianism. “Destroyed lives” from false positives are at this point hypothetical. Child abuse is not. It’s fair to be concerned about false positives and ensure the system handles such failures appropriately. It’s also fair to directly intervene in the widespread circulation of CSAM.
You're right, there is a middle ground. Law enforcement can request a warrant from a judge and demonstrate probable cause to search the machine they believe is harboring CSAM. Any attempt to bypass this process is totalitarianism.
Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
This isn't combatting abuse because producing CSAM != consuming CSAM. It's far better that 10 people beat off to children than have one innocent person come under suspicion.
I disagree. Suspicion is not the same as prosecuted, and every time someone "beats off" to an image of child sexual abuse, that child is re-victimised; every time. You'd rather 10 children be victimised than 1 person falls under suspicion? Ok...
>you’d rather 10 children be victimized
Now you’re just arguing in bad faith.
Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
CP is fairly easy to recognize if you see it I'd imagine. I'm sure there are some instances where an adult just looks very young, but there is probably a lot of CP out there with no potential for that. How exactly does one recognize a bike as stolen from a photograph?
This is a misunderstanding. The goal here is not to identify new child pornography, based on ML trained models. This is to identify known child pornography, according to a hashed value. The hashed value is generated by an ML model.
So is the proposal a system for identifying known images of stolen bikes? That doesn't make sense because it isn't against the law to have an image of a stolen bike.
Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a misunderstanding. The goal here is not to identify new child pornography, based on ML trained models. This is to identify known child pornography, according to a hashed value. The hashed value is generated by an ML model.
So is the proposal a system for identifying known images of stolen bikes? That doesn't make sense because it isn't against the law to have an image of a stolen bike.
No. This system would only work for material that is illegal to possess. If we want to go paranoid, we could see a similar system deployed to prevent computers from having unauthorized copyrighted materials (DRM-free ebooks, academic papers, movies, etc), that’d be a horrible reality.
Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?
#118What's the right number of lives to destroy over false positives from an algorithm? Is it some number other than zero? Why or why not?
I'm more concerned with the fact that framing someone for real CSAM is nearly the perfect crime.
Contract killers have to be up close and personal in meatspace and leave an actual homicide investigation in their wake.
Someone half way around the world could be contracted to spearfish you, take over your phone/laptop then cause it to download actual CSAM.
The first thing you'd know about it is when you were arrested, and then I don't think there's any kind of defense. If the hackers were very sloppy you might be able to hire a very talent forensics team to find traces of the attack. But beyond that you're pretty screwed and nobody will ever believe you.
It is a button that someone (without any morals and willing to take a certain degree of risk) can push to ruin your life remotely, leaving virtually no trace, and allowing virtually no defense. Nobody is ever going to believe a pedophile claiming that they got hacked.
And the intersection of this with politics and national intelligence agencies (who certainly have the skill and lack the morals) is probably a bit disconcerting in the larger stage.
Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Obviously this isn't an apples-to-apples comparison since current self-driving cars are constrained to certain locations... It is much more worse, current so called self driving cars have human drivers that intervene most of the time and saved the idiot AI from crashes but Elon will not count this near crash as an actual crash. >but if the goal is to minimize deaths, then we should be more gung-ho about this technol…
If the AI and the Human both try to correct each other's mistakes wouldn't that make a significantly better system?
Right, but this is not self driving, is a co-pilot, human +AI both drive the car.
Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
Child abuse is a real problem and should have considerable resources dedicated to combating it, but focussing on banning images depicting child abuse does nothing to prevent a child from being abused. We're close to a situation where it's safer to abuse children than to try and find images depicting child abuse. I'm pretty sure that focussing on preventing abuse and supporting children to report abuse will do a lot m…
Police arrest child abusers and traffickers all the time... But as long as there's demand for CP people will create it (like many illecit activities), hence trying to reduce the demand (through making consequences for possessing it). It's funny, comments on this site regularly demonize all sorts of non-consentual images (revenge porn for example) and rightly so but CP is the ultimate non-consentual image - a child do…
There is a vast ocean of difference between "borderline condoning" and "this data must not appear on any storage medium ever". People who possess images of abuse, be it of children or adults, should be forced to delete them and fined appropriately. Additionally there should be an investigation to identify the abusers and punish them accordingly. Beyond that I see no use in sending people who simply possess an image to prison. Yes, the person's rights are being infringed, which should result in some reparations, but I see no use in depriving that person of their freedom.
You cannot remove demand, but you can discourage supply enough that demand would have to be fulfilled by drawings or CGI renderings of nonexistent people.