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Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

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Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#101

Post by User23 »

avazhi wrote: post #18
cmckn wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s the right number of lives to destroy from CSAM? There’s a middle ground between doing nothing and totalitarianism. “Destroyed lives” from false positives are at this point hypothetical. Child abuse is not. It’s fair to be concerned about false positives and ensure the system handles such failures appropriately. It’s also fair to directly intervene in the widespread circulation of CSAM.

CSAM is, by definition, photography or videography of something that has already happened. Therefore, quite literally, doing absolutely nothing about CSAM itself would result in no harm to any child, as the harm has already occurred. Now you're probably going to then cry about incentivising or normalising CSAM - but that's a different argument. And if you then try to argue that the normalisation of CSAM would somehow…

> Therefore, quite literally, doing absolutely nothing about CSAM itself would result in no harm to any child, as the harm has already occurred.

By this "moral" reasoning you're also fully supportive of revenge porn.

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#102

Post by sircastor »

oh_sigh wrote: post #90
WinterMount223 wrote: post #78

What’s with the obsession with CP? I agree that it’s morally wrong and should be penalized but why is it perceived as the Ultimate Crime? Why is this tool supposedly for detecting CP only and not stolen bikes for sale, bullying through SMS, etc which are also criminal offenses?

CP is fairly easy to recognize if you see it I'd imagine. I'm sure there are some instances where an adult just looks very young, but there is probably a lot of CP out there with no potential for that. How exactly does one recognize a bike as stolen from a photograph?

This is a misunderstanding. The goal here is not to identify new child pornography, based on ML trained models. This is to identify known child pornography, according to a hashed value. The hashed value is generated by an ML model.

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#103

Post by OSWJimlo »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #95
WinterMount223 wrote: post #78

What’s with the obsession with CP? I agree that it’s morally wrong and should be penalized but why is it perceived as the Ultimate Crime? Why is this tool supposedly for detecting CP only and not stolen bikes for sale, bullying through SMS, etc which are also criminal offenses?

> I agree that it’s morally wrong and should be penalized but why is it perceived as the Ultimate Crime? Because children are trafficked and abused to create it SMH...

No post body was provided.

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#104

Post by [deleted] »

WinterMount223 wrote: post #78

What’s with the obsession with CP? I agree that it’s morally wrong and should be penalized but why is it perceived as the Ultimate Crime? Why is this tool supposedly for detecting CP only and not stolen bikes for sale, bullying through SMS, etc which are also criminal offenses?

[deleted]

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#105

Post by KennyBlanken »

WinterMount223 wrote: post #78

What’s with the obsession with CP? I agree that it’s morally wrong and should be penalized but why is it perceived as the Ultimate Crime? Why is this tool supposedly for detecting CP only and not stolen bikes for sale, bullying through SMS, etc which are also criminal offenses?

> What’s with the obsession with CP?

It's been the go-to outrage generator for federal law enforcement and spy agencies to use to attack strong device and end-to-end encryption by means of legislation that requires backdoors our outlaws encryption that is too strong.

To see why, scroll down to see the guy advocating for the death penalty for people involved in child porn production.

If only law enforcement showed equal vigor for addressing child abuse in religion, whether it's raping altar boys or using the mouth to clean blood off a baby that has been circumcised (often causing syphilis outbreaks in the process.)

It's almost like it's not actually about fighting child abuse, but about being able to snoop in your devices and communications.

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#106

Post by Schiendelman »

passivate wrote: post #83
sebzim4500 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currently you are surrounded by average drivers. Why are you worried about them being replaced with slightly above average drivers?

No, I am not. I haven't gotten into an accident, nor have I witnessed one that resulted in a fatality or any major injury. The distribution of skills amongst drivers isn't geographically even , nor is it static.

What makes you think it’s not geographically even (at least in a country like the US)?

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#107

Post by smeeth »

WinterMount223 wrote: post #78

What’s with the obsession with CP? I agree that it’s morally wrong and should be penalized but why is it perceived as the Ultimate Crime? Why is this tool supposedly for detecting CP only and not stolen bikes for sale, bullying through SMS, etc which are also criminal offenses?

Two thoughts.

1) Good, simple politics. Protecting kids from predators is about as cut and dry an issue as you will ever find. Harry Potter vs Voldemort might be a more complicated moral issue.

2) I suspect that a few very well connected activists in the Bay Area have made it their life's work to get CSAM tools on sites.

Ashton Kutcher and his organization Thorn [0] are probably the best example of this. Thorn is an interesting example because it has been VERY good at making its case in the non-tech media e.g. [1], [2], [3] and in front of congress [4]. It should be said, Thorn makes technology that helps track down child exploitation and has had some great results, which deserve plaudits.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorn_(organization)

[1] https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/04/15/7126530...

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/02/opinion/sway-kara-swisher...

[3] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/reliable-source/wp/2017/...

[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsgAq72bAoU

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#108

Post by mike_d »

buildbuildbuild wrote: post #21

How does someone truly test how this feature is being used without possessing illegal content? This is a nearly-impossible area to research. Frightening. (edit: I'm of course referring to possessing anti-Putin memes) (sarcasm)

Research has to be done in partnership with the NCMEC, which in turn partners with the Department of Justice to run the database of known CSAM material.

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#109

Post by novok »

WinterMount223 wrote: post #78

What’s with the obsession with CP? I agree that it’s morally wrong and should be penalized but why is it perceived as the Ultimate Crime? Why is this tool supposedly for detecting CP only and not stolen bikes for sale, bullying through SMS, etc which are also criminal offenses?

Because it's a good political tool that leverages parental and other human instincts to protect children. Because it puts most people in such a thought terminating blind panic you shut down thought and use it as cover for your true intentions, and give token enforcement funding for it while you direct the majority of enforcement funding for your true goals to politically control your enemies. It's old as politics itself.

It's been known for a while that this is a political technique. It is one of the four horsemen of the infoacopolypse [0] since 1988 after all. Or that “How would you like this wrapped?” comic by John Jonik in the year 2000 [1]. It's the next round of the crypto wars.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalyp...

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/5re9s1/h...

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#110

Post by [deleted] »

WinterMount223 wrote: post #78

What’s with the obsession with CP? I agree that it’s morally wrong and should be penalized but why is it perceived as the Ultimate Crime? Why is this tool supposedly for detecting CP only and not stolen bikes for sale, bullying through SMS, etc which are also criminal offenses?

[deleted]
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