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Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

eclecticlight.co

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Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#81

Post by passivate »

sebzim4500 wrote: post #73
passivate wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Self-driving cars are unproven tech. Just pointing to the harm that humans contribute towards doesn't mean much. Soldiers also accidentally kill innocent civilians - are you in favor of AI-drones and AI-soldiers??

Not the guy you are talking to, but I would 100% be in favour of AI-drones if it was shown they made fewer mistakes than human operators.

Sure, we all want fewer people harmed in this world. With regards to drones/solders - its a complicated topic, and needs a lot of discussion so I don't mean to be flippant about it as I might have come across. I was merely making a point that eliminating humans just to reduce the mistakes they cause ignores the benefits that humans bring - e.g. in this case - Refusing immoral orders, refusing to harm children or non-combatants, exercising judgement during war, etc.

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#82

Post by supramouse »

avazhi wrote: post #18
cmckn wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s the right number of lives to destroy from CSAM? There’s a middle ground between doing nothing and totalitarianism. “Destroyed lives” from false positives are at this point hypothetical. Child abuse is not. It’s fair to be concerned about false positives and ensure the system handles such failures appropriately. It’s also fair to directly intervene in the widespread circulation of CSAM.

CSAM is, by definition, photography or videography of something that has already happened. Therefore, quite literally, doing absolutely nothing about CSAM itself would result in no harm to any child, as the harm has already occurred. Now you're probably going to then cry about incentivising or normalising CSAM - but that's a different argument. And if you then try to argue that the normalisation of CSAM would somehow…

Is this opinion or backed with something?

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#83

Post by passivate »

sebzim4500 wrote: post #71
passivate wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There is lots of information about the safety of human driven cars, it is not a high bar to improve upon, and can be verified. That doesn't make sense. The 'average' driver gets into millions of accidents. I don't want a slight above average driver driving my family around, and I don't want slightly above average drivers around me - especially those who I can't communicate with - by honking, by shouting to get their…

Currently you are surrounded by average drivers. Why are you worried about them being replaced with slightly above average drivers?

No, I am not. I haven't gotten into an accident, nor have I witnessed one that resulted in a fatality or any major injury.

The distribution of skills amongst drivers isn't geographically even , nor is it static.

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#84

Post by Angostura »

mdoms wrote: post #44

This article could help by defining what Visual Look Up is... I have never heard of it.

Indeed - here is a nice little article that described one aspect of it that was posted the other day: https://eclecticlight.co/2022/03/16/how-good-is-montereys-vi...

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#85

Post by notRobot »

WinterMount223 wrote: post #78

What’s with the obsession with CP? I agree that it’s morally wrong and should be penalized but why is it perceived as the Ultimate Crime? Why is this tool supposedly for detecting CP only and not stolen bikes for sale, bullying through SMS, etc which are also criminal offenses?

> why is it perceived as the Ultimate Crime?

Because you can apparently justify any move, no matter how authoritarian, by saying "think of the kids"!

It's politicians and governments exploitating psychology to get away with problematic crap.

It's not the ultimate crime, it's the ultimate justification.

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#87

Post by Hello71 »

jdavis703 wrote: post #76
buildbuildbuild wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought about this, but you're still stuck trusting the implementation unless you test with actual illegal data, which is often criminal and immoral to obtain. Example: How does a researcher test whether algorithmically-classified illegal imagery stored on user devices is being scanned and reported home to Apple's servers, and what those bounds of AI-classified criminality are? (presumably with respect to what is i…

Possessing CSAM if it’s for abuse-prevention is not immoral, regardless of what the law says. Saying otherwise is a slippery slope to saying judges, jurors and evidence custodians are also immoral. In fact if possession is so immoral, CSAM trials shouldn’t even have visual evidence. We should just trust the prosecutor.

while i vaguely agree with the idea behind this comment, this explanation is particularly poor. by that logic, it should be allowed to kill people to prevent murder. it is, in fact, allowed to kill people to prevent murder, but only in specific legally-prescribed circumstances. typically, only specific people are allowed to kill, and only to prevent an immediate murder. the same applies for child porn: it is allowed to have child porn to prevent child porn, but only under certain legally-prescribed circumstances.

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#88

Post by selimthegrim »

noasaservice wrote: post #62

I'm fine with child (prepubescent) rapists whom are adults to be sentenced to death. If you were an accomplice to that, as a videographer or similar, I'm also OK with death. (There's a really weird social area from 13-18, with the weirdness and illegality going away up at 18. Stuff in this realm, especially around 2 similar ages, gets very stupid. This is where you can get 2 16yo's sexting and being charged with CSAM…

Are you a fan of giving said rapists the incentive to murder too, making prosecuting them that much harder?

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#89

Post by bastawhiz »

passivate wrote: post #40
version_five wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is ignorant. There is lots of information about the safety of human driven cars, it is not a high bar to improve upon, and can be verified. The technology in question is introducing a new form of potentially ruinous statistical surveillance that didn't exist before.

>There is lots of information about the safety of human driven cars, it is not a high bar to improve upon, and can be verified. That doesn't make sense. The 'average' driver gets into millions of accidents. I don't want a slight above average driver driving my family around, and I don't want slightly above average drivers around me - especially those who I can't communicate with - by honking, by shouting to get their…

What measure are you using for "slightly above average" that also equals "unproven dangerous"? If the above average technology is dangerous, surely the average driver is even more dangerous. Otherwise it's not really above average, no? I.e., how can you make fewer errors and be a measurably better driver but still be worse than the thing that you're measurably better than?

Either you're making this argument in bad faith because you just don't like self driving cars, or you don't believe in statistics as a concept.

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#90

Post by oh_sigh »

WinterMount223 wrote: post #78

What’s with the obsession with CP? I agree that it’s morally wrong and should be penalized but why is it perceived as the Ultimate Crime? Why is this tool supposedly for detecting CP only and not stolen bikes for sale, bullying through SMS, etc which are also criminal offenses?

CP is fairly easy to recognize if you see it I'd imagine. I'm sure there are some instances where an adult just looks very young, but there is probably a lot of CP out there with no potential for that.

How exactly does one recognize a bike as stolen from a photograph?

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