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Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

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Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#71

Post by sebzim4500 »

passivate wrote: post #40
version_five wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is ignorant. There is lots of information about the safety of human driven cars, it is not a high bar to improve upon, and can be verified. The technology in question is introducing a new form of potentially ruinous statistical surveillance that didn't exist before.

>There is lots of information about the safety of human driven cars, it is not a high bar to improve upon, and can be verified. That doesn't make sense. The 'average' driver gets into millions of accidents. I don't want a slight above average driver driving my family around, and I don't want slightly above average drivers around me - especially those who I can't communicate with - by honking, by shouting to get their…

Currently you are surrounded by average drivers. Why are you worried about them being replaced with slightly above average drivers?

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#72

Post by bitwize »

perihelions wrote: post #60
azinman2 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean one of the countries sales of devices just stopped in? And the other already was announced to be a US org? And you need the intersection of both?

- "And the other already was announced to be a US org?" Then one rogue employee in a US org could be sufficient to get selective root to every Apple device everywhere? That's easy for a nation-state adversary. Here's demonstrated examples: MBS had US-based moles in Twitter corporate spying on Khashoggi [0], and Xi had Chinese-based Zoom employees spying on dissidents in America [1]. [0] https://www.npr.org/2019/11/06…

The FBI also has a way of "discovering" CSAM on the computers of uncooperative informants/suspects.

https://www.pilotonline.com/nation-world/article_b02c37d2-ca...

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#73

Post by sebzim4500 »

passivate wrote: post #54
mdoms wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1.35 million deaths per year caused by car accidents. That doesn't even account for the people who survive, but are maimed.

Self-driving cars are unproven tech. Just pointing to the harm that humans contribute towards doesn't mean much. Soldiers also accidentally kill innocent civilians - are you in favor of AI-drones and AI-soldiers??

Not the guy you are talking to, but I would 100% be in favour of AI-drones if it was shown they made fewer mistakes than human operators.

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#74

Post by CharlesW »

noasaservice wrote: post #62

I'm fine with child (prepubescent) rapists whom are adults to be sentenced to death. If you were an accomplice to that, as a videographer or similar, I'm also OK with death. (There's a really weird social area from 13-18, with the weirdness and illegality going away up at 18. Stuff in this realm, especially around 2 similar ages, gets very stupid. This is where you can get 2 16yo's sexting and being charged with CSAM…

> But what does this CSAM scanner do? It only catches already-produced pictures of CSAM.

You say this as if it's bad to identify people who are distributing or collecting known child pornography. Are you recommending that companies implement technologies which go beyond this by not depending on a corpus of existing materials?

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#75

Post by bitwize »

rootusrootus wrote: post #57
avazhi wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CSAM is, by definition, photography or videography of something that has already happened. Therefore, quite literally, doing absolutely nothing about CSAM itself would result in no harm to any child, as the harm has already occurred. Now you're probably going to then cry about incentivising or normalising CSAM - but that's a different argument. And if you then try to argue that the normalisation of CSAM would somehow…

> the harm has already occurred Circulating images of a minor child engaged in sexual abuse do not constitute an ongoing harm to that child? That's a fascinating viewpoint. > Apple and everybody else can fuck right off with this Orwellian shit. Right along with people who think child abuse images should be okay to keep as long as you aren't the one who made them.

> Circulating images of a minor child engaged in sexual abuse do not constitute an ongoing harm to that child?

When you do it, it does. When law enforcement does it, apparently not...

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#76

Post by jdavis703 »

buildbuildbuild wrote: post #59
willcipriano wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come up with something like: X51!P%@AP[4\PZX54(P^)7CC)7}$EICAR-STANDARD-CHILD-ABUSE-CONTENT-TEST-FILE!$H+H* https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EICAR_test_file

I thought about this, but you're still stuck trusting the implementation unless you test with actual illegal data, which is often criminal and immoral to obtain. Example: How does a researcher test whether algorithmically-classified illegal imagery stored on user devices is being scanned and reported home to Apple's servers, and what those bounds of AI-classified criminality are? (presumably with respect to what is i…

Possessing CSAM if it’s for abuse-prevention is not immoral, regardless of what the law says. Saying otherwise is a slippery slope to saying judges, jurors and evidence custodians are also immoral. In fact if possession is so immoral, CSAM trials shouldn’t even have visual evidence. We should just trust the prosecutor.

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#77

Post by WinterMount223 »

avazhi wrote: post #18
cmckn wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s the right number of lives to destroy from CSAM? There’s a middle ground between doing nothing and totalitarianism. “Destroyed lives” from false positives are at this point hypothetical. Child abuse is not. It’s fair to be concerned about false positives and ensure the system handles such failures appropriately. It’s also fair to directly intervene in the widespread circulation of CSAM.

CSAM is, by definition, photography or videography of something that has already happened. Therefore, quite literally, doing absolutely nothing about CSAM itself would result in no harm to any child, as the harm has already occurred. Now you're probably going to then cry about incentivising or normalising CSAM - but that's a different argument. And if you then try to argue that the normalisation of CSAM would somehow…

There are levels of harm. It’s not boolean.

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#78

Post by WinterMount223 »

What’s with the obsession with CP? I agree that it’s morally wrong and should be penalized but why is it perceived as the Ultimate Crime? Why is this tool supposedly for detecting CP only and not stolen bikes for sale, bullying through SMS, etc which are also criminal offenses?

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#79

Post by charcircuit »

rootusrootus wrote: post #57
avazhi wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CSAM is, by definition, photography or videography of something that has already happened. Therefore, quite literally, doing absolutely nothing about CSAM itself would result in no harm to any child, as the harm has already occurred. Now you're probably going to then cry about incentivising or normalising CSAM - but that's a different argument. And if you then try to argue that the normalisation of CSAM would somehow…

> the harm has already occurred Circulating images of a minor child engaged in sexual abuse do not constitute an ongoing harm to that child? That's a fascinating viewpoint. > Apple and everybody else can fuck right off with this Orwellian shit. Right along with people who think child abuse images should be okay to keep as long as you aren't the one who made them.

The problem of having porn posted of yourself is not something that applies only to minors. It can happen with any age.

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#80

Post by modeless »

JimDabell wrote: post #37
agildehaus wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't they just scan iCloud uploads on-server then? Why does anything need to be done on-device?

This scheme is obviously designed to work when Apple has no direct access to the photos. Because of this, there is a lot of speculation that Apple plans on making iCloud photos encrypted. This scheme would continue to work in that situation, whereas the on-server approach would fail. However that’s just speculation, Apple haven’t announced anything.

That speculation is pretty out there considering that there have been no barriers to them doing true end-to-end encryption of iMessage backups, but they have chosen not to for many years despite marketing iMessage as "end-to-end" encrypted. Reportedly at the direct request of the FBI. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv...
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