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US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

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Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#261

Post by VBprogrammer »

headmelted wrote: post #246
VBprogrammer wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> diesel buses breakdown regularly In comparison to what? Diesel engines in commercial vehicles are extremely reliable. It certainly could be possible for an electric bus to be more reliable, they certainly have less points of mechanical wear. However, there are a lot of power electronics going into charging their batteries and delivering the battery power to the motors.

Diesels, in general, are notoriously unreliable. The only very selective myth I still hear repeated is that diesel engines are more durable now than they were, which isn’t saying much, and skirts around just how much else can and regularly does go wrong with a diesel-powered vehicle. Flywheel clutches are an expensive nightmare, and the vibration destroys manifolds, cams and exhausts in short order. That’s only for t…

If Diesel engines are so unreliable why are they used in practically every heavy goods vehicle, bus, tractor, plant equipment, ship and backup electric generator in operation today?

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#262

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

stephen999 wrote: post #248
mtgx wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Diesel motors generate a substantial amount of fine particulate that is unhealthy for anybody, and particularly unhealthy for children. This is one of the biggest issues with US' private healthcare system. The U.S. government just doesn't feel that direct "cost" in the same way countries that have to pay to fix the health of their citizens do. This is why you see a lot of other countries put higher taxes on sugar,…

Huh? Most of Europe has socialized medicine and they have a ton more diesels and thus air pollution than the US.

Yes, that was a mistake. Diesel was promoted as lower C02 than petrol engines, before the problems with particulates were well known. (1)

This is of course changing now. (2)

As noted in the second link, a factor is the "Volkswagen emissions scandal", AKA "Dieselgate" (3)

1) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41985715

2) https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/98747/d...

3) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#263

Post by madduci »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #169
fiftyfifty wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in terms of primary cost, diesel buses are expensive to maintain. My FIL was a mechanic for the local school district for 15 years, so I got a little insight into that aspect of the district. Our medium sized school district, 4 big high schools and all the feeder schools for them, employs around 6 full time mechanics plus their manager with all the equipment and the facility to work on the buses year round plus…

> diesel buses breakdown regularly In comparison to what? Diesel engines in commercial vehicles are extremely reliable. It certainly could be possible for an electric bus to be more reliable, they certainly have less points of mechanical wear. However, there are a lot of power electronics going into charging their batteries and delivering the battery power to the motors.

Exactly. Take construction or military machinery as example : they are all running diesel. Who says that's not reliable? Probably after clocking more than 200.000 km and without maintenance. Motors on good shape and we'll maintained don't break down regularly

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#264

Post by drewcon »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #261
headmelted wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diesels, in general, are notoriously unreliable. The only very selective myth I still hear repeated is that diesel engines are more durable now than they were, which isn’t saying much, and skirts around just how much else can and regularly does go wrong with a diesel-powered vehicle. Flywheel clutches are an expensive nightmare, and the vibration destroys manifolds, cams and exhausts in short order. That’s only for t…

If Diesel engines are so unreliable why are they used in practically every heavy goods vehicle, bus, tractor, plant equipment, ship and backup electric generator in operation today?

Torque.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#265

Post by selimthegrim »

mywittyname wrote: post #138
Gracana wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's incredible. https://www.fuelly.com/car/dodge/ram_2500/2003

Maybe they call him fasteddie because he drives so slow.

If he buys an electric truck he can change his name to Crazy Eddie when he sells it

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#266

Post by moltke »

me_me_mu_mu wrote: post #95

When I was a kid like 15 years ago we'd walk to school if it was close. I took the bus until middle school which was like 1 mile away. I hope car usage goes down, especially a single person driving a big SUV. Walk, or bike, to where you need to go. Less cars, more safe.

I think car usage is likely to go up unless the crime in cities is dealt with. For that to happen we have to stop calling constructive peace keeping work "racist" though and that seems unlikely.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#268

Post by AtlasBarfed »

fiftyfifty wrote: post #137
kemiller wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engineering Explained did the math: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhtiPefVzM Spoiler: Well-to-wheels, BEV cars are better than the best gas cars (top end prius) even if the source electricity is 100% coal. The best is still not driving, but it's a step in the right direction.

There's also the fact that coal power plants tend to be pretty far from heavily populated areas. Even if the US power grid were 100% coal (which it is not) this would still be a win as far as cleaner air goes for a significant portion of the population. There's a big difference between a coal burning power plant's emissions 50 miles away and a school bus idling right outside your house in terms of air quality. That's…

Plus coal is more expensive by LCOE than wind and solar, and has been for several years.

That means electric companies are losing money running coal plants.

They are racing to replace them with wind and solar and natural gas turbine, with the gas turbine slater for replacement with storage once that is cheap enough.

Finally, with EVs and the electric grid, the power can be phased out centrally. Even if coal is used RIGHT NOW, once new power generation is available it is a seamless switchover for EVs.

If in the long term some dirt cheap thorium reactor supplants solar and wind, EVs don't care where the electrons come from.

Plus home solar, EVs doubling as home energy backup/storage, less components in the EV require less manufacturing, safer skateboard design, more internal space, lower center of gravity, regen breaking.

Although the ideal transition is a 100 mile LFP PHEV for the next ten years. No range anxiety, 90% + of daily and weekend driving is all electric, maximizes use of current manufacturing capacity of batteries, regen breaking efficiency.

Ten years ago (,ten years after the first Prius) we should have required all consumer passenger vehicles to be PHEV in a phased in manner.

It's still not too late to do that.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#269

Post by aurizon »

rootusrootus wrote: post #218
aurizon wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to say. Most contracts are public access files. but I am not sure if there are redactions for competitive reasons?

To prove I'm an optimist, I'll say that most levels of government in the US must have transparency regulations that would prevent them from being bound by any kind of NDA. Otherwise the potential for corruption is pretty significant. Like I said, I'm an optimist. If you trust google search, my 2 minute research suggests the federal government explicitly disallows NDAs from binding them, and that in government overall…

Yes, That fits. People need transparency as far as possible. For example, prison phone systems are onerous monopolies that oppress prisoners with enormous connection fees. Apparently the various prisons accept bids = the largest fee paid to the prison system is the winner - who then extract the max fees from inmates. The spectrum auction looks, on the face of it, to be a simple bidding process. Sadly the winners than pay billions to the feds and the winners then extort cell phone and internet users for fees - in the mean time, those billions that could have made US wideband universal and lower in cost are sucked into the political maw and wasted, oligarch style = USA lags behind dozens of countries due to this corruption.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#270

Post by DFHippie »

erosenbe0 wrote: post #219
mtgx wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Diesel motors generate a substantial amount of fine particulate that is unhealthy for anybody, and particularly unhealthy for children. This is one of the biggest issues with US' private healthcare system. The U.S. government just doesn't feel that direct "cost" in the same way countries that have to pay to fix the health of their citizens do. This is why you see a lot of other countries put higher taxes on sugar,…

Nope, about 1/3 of Americans have Medicaid or Medicare. At least 6% of all gdp is government dollars in healthcare, probably more.

The US spends about as much as peer nations on healthcare through taxes. Then it spends that much again in private expenses. In return it gets poorer health outcomes.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-...

https://www.statista.com/statistics/237043/us-health-care-sp...

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