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US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

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Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#231

Post by dillondoyle »

Great news. Buses and government vehicles are perfect for electric. They go back to dedicated parking lots perfect for charging.

We desperately need to force electric vehicles for the upcoming USPS replacements too.

The funding / reform bill passed, but as far as I can tell it does not mandate or address the fleet. DeJoy said he was replacing with gas. There was a proposed bill but I can't find any recent news on it.

Ridiculous to spend that much money on 100% custom built vehicles that are gas powered.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#232

Post by [deleted] »

bluGill wrote: post #207
VBprogrammer wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> diesel buses breakdown regularly In comparison to what? Diesel engines in commercial vehicles are extremely reliable. It certainly could be possible for an electric bus to be more reliable, they certainly have less points of mechanical wear. However, there are a lot of power electronics going into charging their batteries and delivering the battery power to the motors.

Most parts that break on a car are common to electric or engines. Suspension, brake fluid (the brakes might last longer but the fluid should be replaced every few years), tires, doors, seats.

[deleted]

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#233

Post by elihu »

fiftyfifty wrote: post #101
MengerSponge wrote: post #77

The secondary costs of running a diesel fleet are also huge! Diesel motors generate a substantial amount of fine particulate that is unhealthy for anybody, and particularly unhealthy for children. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC121970/ Even if an electric fleet is the same cost, changing over would save tons of money and alleviate tons of suffering. It's the right thing to do for any ethical reason you…

Even in terms of primary cost, diesel buses are expensive to maintain. My FIL was a mechanic for the local school district for 15 years, so I got a little insight into that aspect of the district. Our medium sized school district, 4 big high schools and all the feeder schools for them, employs around 6 full time mechanics plus their manager with all the equipment and the facility to work on the buses year round plus…

> They also have to have at least one extra bus and driver on standby every day because diesel buses breakdown regularly during a route and they have to go out with a second bus and pick up the kids and finish the route.

I distinctly remember being one of those kids that would have to be picked up in another bus every once in awhile. This was before cell phones, so the bus driver had to walk to the nearest house (this was out in the country) and ask to use the phone. I think we had a problem bus for a few months where this happened fairly regularly until they swapped it out for a different one.

One time a passing vehicle kicked up a rock that took out the windshield. Nobody was seriously injured, but there was a fair bit of broken glass.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#234

Post by tshaddox »

elihu wrote: post #233
fiftyfifty wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in terms of primary cost, diesel buses are expensive to maintain. My FIL was a mechanic for the local school district for 15 years, so I got a little insight into that aspect of the district. Our medium sized school district, 4 big high schools and all the feeder schools for them, employs around 6 full time mechanics plus their manager with all the equipment and the facility to work on the buses year round plus…

> They also have to have at least one extra bus and driver on standby every day because diesel buses breakdown regularly during a route and they have to go out with a second bus and pick up the kids and finish the route. I distinctly remember being one of those kids that would have to be picked up in another bus every once in awhile. This was before cell phones, so the bus driver had to walk to the nearest house (thi…

The buses in my small town all had radios (and quite a bit of chatter between drivers, as I recall). Were you in a district with very long distances or geography where that wouldn’t have been feasible?

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#235

Post by tshaddox »

BurningFrog wrote: post #209
mtgx wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Diesel motors generate a substantial amount of fine particulate that is unhealthy for anybody, and particularly unhealthy for children. This is one of the biggest issues with US' private healthcare system. The U.S. government just doesn't feel that direct "cost" in the same way countries that have to pay to fix the health of their citizens do. This is why you see a lot of other countries put higher taxes on sugar,…

I really doubt this causation, for a few reasons. 1. Everyone gets sick and dies. Dying a bit earlier from diesel probably doesn't cost more than whatever you would have died from later. 2. These other countries also have government funded pension system. If people live longer that's an added expense! If you do the cynical math, government finances are best if people die of something cheap soon after they retire.

Consider that, even for two people who die at the same age, the one who is sick for many years before dying probably incurs more healthcare costs.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#236

Post by stevekemp »

Barrin92 wrote: post #172
mtgx wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Diesel motors generate a substantial amount of fine particulate that is unhealthy for anybody, and particularly unhealthy for children. This is one of the biggest issues with US' private healthcare system. The U.S. government just doesn't feel that direct "cost" in the same way countries that have to pay to fix the health of their citizens do. This is why you see a lot of other countries put higher taxes on sugar,…

Very true and also the reason for the exploding costs of the education system people complain about. In countries where universities run on public budgets you won't see exploding administrations and degree inflation because the state has a direct incentive to keep costs low rather than handing out loans that go to private institutions. Was honestly surprised when I saw that the rate of university graduation in the US…

I guess if you're a year/two into a course in America you'd probably have $20,000 in debt to pay. If you have to pay it without graduating then you'd probably think you'd wasted the money - so you'd be likely to finish the degree to make sure you got "something" out of it.

By contrast here in Finland education is free, so it's a lot easier for people to start courses, and if it didn't suit then drop out. Or move cities, and get a job.

Where education is free I'd expect both more people to sign up to it, but also more people to drop out. Or take 10+ years to eventually get their degree whilst continuing to work.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#237

Post by derriz »

brg wrote: post #191
derriz wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is doing a calculation based on assuming electricity sourced 100% from coal or NG help develop an informed decision? US electricity is roughly 40% carbon free, 40% natural gas and 20% coal - wouldn’t it be more honest to use this mix in your calculation? And that’s ignoring particulates and NOx.

Coal is used to establish a lower bound.

That makes little sense to me.

Your analysis would result in the conclusion that charging an EV in France (90% carbon free electricity) causes the same amount of CO2 emissions as using one in South Africa (90% fossil fuel electricity).

The expansion of EVs has coincided with a massive drop in coal electricity share and a massive increase in solar PV and wind share, globally. Assuming that expanding EVs are being powered by coal is odd to say the least. Especially given that (at least where I live) 70%+ of EV charging is done at home, mostly using off-peak electricity, which tends to have a much higher renewable share.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#238

Post by octoberfranklin »

bobthepanda wrote: post #127
caseysoftware wrote: post #123

Busses as a Service from a venture-backed company in a ridiculously volatile market.. What happens if/when they run out of funding? Having a business productivity app go out of business with an "amazing journey" post is irritating but there are 50 other apps that will take their place. Introducing "as a service" here where there are serious legal and even civil rights issues in play is radically different.

I mean, this is how aircraft and trains (and yes, even buses) get leased these days, particularly in the EU. Vehicle depreciation is a massive headache.

Those fleet lessors are not the manufacturers. If the lessor goes belly-up, you can lease the exact same model of plane/train/etc from one of their competitors.=

If Boeing's financial stability depended on the sucess of one particular aircraft lessor, that would be a huge problem.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#239

Post by derriz »

skolsuper wrote: post #203
brg wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coal is used to establish a lower bound.

And maybe as the type of generation used for the marginal difference in energy required. If your country generates 90% of its electricity from hydroelectric and 10% from coal, you might still use coal for the comparison because hydroelectric power would be slow to add and the extra electricity for EVs would have to provided by coal

Assuming that it's more likely that marginal demand will be met by coal than by renewables makes no sense to me.

Coal is rapidly been retired as a source of electricity generation - 85% of generation capacity being retired in 2022 will be coal[1] - and there hasn't been a new large coal plant built in the US for over a decade[2]. In Europe the amount of electricity being generated by coal is half of what it was at its peak.

Meanwhile, renewables now make up about a 87% share of new electricity generation capacity in the the US[3]. Europe is similar.

Pricing the CO2 emissions cost of an EV using the dirtiest and fastest declining electricity source (coal) does not seem fair or honest to me.

[1] https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=50838

[2] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/will-the-u-s-ever...

[3] https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/solar/renewables-are-87...

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