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US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

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Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#141

Post by freeflight »

jws wrote: post #68
speedgoose wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is safety a criteria for school bus in USA? I thought it was only cost since the design is from the last century and many bus don’t even have seatbelts.

The NHTSA recognizes that large busses are not cars and use a different solution. Large school buses are heavier and distribute crash forces differently than passenger cars and light trucks do. Because of these differences, bus passengers experience much less crash force than those in passenger cars, light trucks, and vans. NHTSA decided the best way to provide crash protection to passengers of large school buses is…

This NTSB PSA video explains it like "eggs in a carton" [0], but those bus seats look like regular benches, zero molding for an actual fit, like an egg would have inside a carton from all sides.

I understand that getting a horde of kids to put on seatbelts is a compliance nightmare, but imho it's difficult to argue how that wouldn't make a massive difference in a crash scenario, particularly during roll-over incidents [1]

[0] https://youtu.be/ksw67zFnuAE

[1] https://youtu.be/l4uHbX0SL_w (NSFW)

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#142

Post by rootusrootus »

mcv wrote: post #132
kemiller wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engineering Explained did the math: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhtiPefVzM Spoiler: Well-to-wheels, BEV cars are better than the best gas cars (top end prius) even if the source electricity is 100% coal. The best is still not driving, but it's a step in the right direction.

Not driving would mean smaller schools closer to home, and infrastructure that allows kids to ride their bike to school. It's completely doable, but it does require people to care about more than just cars.

It would significantly expand taxes, and that nearly always faces stiff opposition with voters. Especially when it is an open-ended increase.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#143

Post by thescriptkiddie »

sremani wrote: post #122
coryrc wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lithium is a tiny fraction of battery cost.

Materials are 60% cost of Li battery and across the board material costs are increasing. So, I stick to my assessment barring new evidence (which was not provided by your post), that Li battery prices falling in dollar terms is done. Reference: https://qnovo.com/82-the-cost-components-of-a-battery/

The only component of the battery which contains Lithium is the cathode, which according to the article you linked is a little less than 1/3 of the material cost, or around 20% of the total cost. The battery chemistry which contains the most Lithium is Lithium Cobalt Oxide, which by weight is approximately 7% Lithium and 60% Cobalt. Even though Lithium is vastly more expensive than Cobalt, Cobalt still accounts for the majority of the cathode material cost. So it seems like Lithium accounts for at most 10% of the cost of the battery.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#144

Post by asdff »

MengerSponge wrote: post #77

The secondary costs of running a diesel fleet are also huge! Diesel motors generate a substantial amount of fine particulate that is unhealthy for anybody, and particularly unhealthy for children. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC121970/ Even if an electric fleet is the same cost, changing over would save tons of money and alleviate tons of suffering. It's the right thing to do for any ethical reason you…

Do school districts still use diesel? CNG seems pretty popular these days.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#145

Post by lostlogin »

olivermarks wrote: post #136
kube-system wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fire risk is a major reason why we already put as many as 8 or more emergency exits on full size school busses.

https://youtu.be/J6eS6JzBn0k Lithium-Ion Battery Fires in Electric Vehicles - Safety Risks to Emergency RespondersNTSBGov Thermal runaway, stranded energy and battery reignition should preclude EV usage to transport children until adequate safety measures are put in place. EV car fires are intense, high voltage and severe. A bus full of children fire doesn't bear thinking about.

Ever been near a car fire? They burn pretty well and you'll feel it from the other side of a multilane road. I've also seen buses burn. Is there a reason to think that more kids are going to burn in electric busses than ICE ones?

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#146

Post by freeflight »

daemoens wrote: post #106
speedgoose wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a nice way to say that kids can slam the seats.

They'll slam into the seats and still be safer.

YouTube has plenty of videos showing the insides of school buses during crashes, anything that ain't a frontal crash has kids sliding and flying all over the place.

They slide sideways out of the seats trough any serious horizontal forces, in the case of a rollover their heads will violently hit the roof as they literally take off from the seats [0], and then fall on the people on the ground side.

[0] https://youtu.be/OvNjVQkye8Y

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#147

Post by Symbiote »

akira2501 wrote: post #72
sanp wrote: post #14

I still don't get that TCO for EV is higher than Diesel. On the consumer side, let's look at Tesla Model Y vs. Lexus RX 350. I am using "premium" makes on both sides of this equations. If we want to go with a cheaper ICE then it should be compared with a cheaper EV. Idea being, there is a reasonable comparison where EV comes out ahead on TCO. Cost / mile: $0.04 vs. $0.10 Difference in purchase cost: $55K (base model…

How many Diesel repair shops are there vs. heavy duty EV vehicle repair shops?

Plenty, according to the presentation linked elsewhere in this discussion.

Cummins (the major manufacturer of engines, generators etc) will service the high voltage parts of the bus.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#148

Post by wolverine876 »

jjtheblunt wrote: post #91
MengerSponge wrote: post #77

The secondary costs of running a diesel fleet are also huge! Diesel motors generate a substantial amount of fine particulate that is unhealthy for anybody, and particularly unhealthy for children. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC121970/ Even if an electric fleet is the same cost, changing over would save tons of money and alleviate tons of suffering. It's the right thing to do for any ethical reason you…

(Disclaimer: have driven pure electric for going on 7.5 years) It may be more complex: electricity generation is very dirty in some regions, such as where coal is burned. Is it more dirty than diesel emissions? I have no idea, but old diesels were nasty.

We can make power plants cleaner, and generally we do (but not nearly fast enough).

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#149

Post by wolverine876 »

mostly_harmless wrote: post #111

For those questioning the feasibility, 100% electric school buses are already on the road in Montreal. I see them frequently, and they seem to handle our crappy roads and winters fine.

Why would electric buses have more problems on winter roads than ICE buses?

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#150

Post by asdff »

aurizon wrote: post #86

A niche opened up, buy ebusses, lock school boards into 10-20 year contracts to save 10-20% on fuels costs and have zero capital/maintenance costs. The bus company lives on the ~~60-70% fuels cost saving and finances the bus fleet. Typical contract to see to various users with short terms viewpoints. I would like to see what the board savings are in a sample of a lease - most will be under NDA's I expect?

Niche is already exploited. School boards have already been contracting out busing. Diesel/CNG contractors will just retool and charge more for green tax to school boards that want to pay.
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