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US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

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Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#131

Post by olivermarks »

'Out of the roughly 500,000 school buses in the U.S., only about 0.2 percent — just over 1,000 — were electric as of the end of 2021'

I can see EV buses being practical for future urban short distance pickup and drop off, but the longer haul rural routes, especially in cold climates, seem a long way off to the EV obsessed as a solution to anything. Huge subsidies and grants may seduce a few school boards but the reality is diesel loads replaced by EV are no where near ready for prime time.

What could immediately help the local pollution aspects of EV heavy vehicles is some sort of tire particulate collection device to stop spread. Tire pollution is a huge problem that is probably more important than where energy is obtained from near or far https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/03/20200308-emissionsa...

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#132

Post by mcv »

kemiller wrote: post #119
jjtheblunt wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Disclaimer: have driven pure electric for going on 7.5 years) It may be more complex: electricity generation is very dirty in some regions, such as where coal is burned. Is it more dirty than diesel emissions? I have no idea, but old diesels were nasty.

Engineering Explained did the math: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhtiPefVzM Spoiler: Well-to-wheels, BEV cars are better than the best gas cars (top end prius) even if the source electricity is 100% coal. The best is still not driving, but it's a step in the right direction.

Not driving would mean smaller schools closer to home, and infrastructure that allows kids to ride their bike to school. It's completely doable, but it does require people to care about more than just cars.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#133

Post by tigeba »

Just as an interesting note, our school district has switched the entire fleet (around 150) to CNG. This has supposedly reduced opex substantially over diesel. Also a huge reduction in particulates. Probably not as clean as EV but an improvement . Our district owns all their vehicles, but I believe this is not common.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#134

Post by mywittyname »

cpwright wrote: post #49
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a fairly standard reframing when your product has lower TCO but higher upfront costs. If people just look at the upfront cost, they have that 2x or 3x gut reaction and just switch off. Some nerdier types might draw up a spreadsheet and know exactly how many months they'd expect to break even and start saving. People familiar with spreadsheets probably also don't have that much trouble getting loans and paying…

I'm not sure why you would assume that the average school bus buyer can't do a spreadsheet. Our local suburban NY school district is fairly run-of-the mill, and has a budget of $84 million with several million dollars of that being for transportation. We have our own busses and drivers, and they spend about a quarter million dollars a year on diesel fuel. The Superintendent for business affairs that has an MBA from C…

As much flak as people give "the government" for poor spending, there's actually a huge amount of auditing and checks in place for purchases by officials.

There's no way a decision like this gets made without a several "independent assessments" happening as a CYA move.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#135

Post by mywittyname »

anonymouse008 wrote: post #109
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capex Opex swaps are pretty common, and it's not just a matter of poverty. (It's why airlines lease their planes.) Swap "subscribe" with "lease" and this article becomes less interesting.

Yeah, and school's budgets are cash tight, with comparatively little ability to fundraise, so any large cash transaction will be DOA. The swap should take place, and I'm now wondering why this hasn't occurred.

Schools often issue bonds to cover large purchases. Plus, sometimes states/fed will toss them grants.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#136

Post by olivermarks »

kube-system wrote: post #60
bnt wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, here the batteries catch fire and a bunch of kids burn to death. Grim, but possible.

Fire risk is a major reason why we already put as many as 8 or more emergency exits on full size school busses.

https://youtu.be/J6eS6JzBn0k Lithium-Ion Battery Fires in Electric Vehicles - Safety Risks to Emergency RespondersNTSBGov

Thermal runaway, stranded energy and battery reignition should preclude EV usage to transport children until adequate safety measures are put in place. EV car fires are intense, high voltage and severe. A bus full of children fire doesn't bear thinking about.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#137

Post by fiftyfifty »

kemiller wrote: post #119
jjtheblunt wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Disclaimer: have driven pure electric for going on 7.5 years) It may be more complex: electricity generation is very dirty in some regions, such as where coal is burned. Is it more dirty than diesel emissions? I have no idea, but old diesels were nasty.

Engineering Explained did the math: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhtiPefVzM Spoiler: Well-to-wheels, BEV cars are better than the best gas cars (top end prius) even if the source electricity is 100% coal. The best is still not driving, but it's a step in the right direction.

There's also the fact that coal power plants tend to be pretty far from heavily populated areas. Even if the US power grid were 100% coal (which it is not) this would still be a win as far as cleaner air goes for a significant portion of the population. There's a big difference between a coal burning power plant's emissions 50 miles away and a school bus idling right outside your house in terms of air quality. That's not even counting the air scrubbers and particulate capturing systems many coal power plants are required to have. The bottom line is the exhaust coming out of a coal burning power plant is much cleaner than even a brand new diesel school bus, let alone all the older buses still in service.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#138

Post by mywittyname »

Gracana wrote: post #115
fasteddie31003 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My 03 Ram 2500 gets 24 MPG

That's incredible. https://www.fuelly.com/car/dodge/ram_2500/2003

Maybe they call him fasteddie because he drives so slow.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#139

Post by Amezarak »

adgjlsfhk1 wrote: post #47
Johnny555 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average lifetime of a schoolbus is 10 - 12 years, so if they do manage to keep this service going for a decade, that's pretty good -- in 10 years the schol district would have been ready to refresh their fleet anyway, and hopefully the reason this business can't survive long-term is that electric buses become cheaper and ubiquitous.

Part of the reason for the 10-12 year lifespan is that ICE motors are really complicated and at a certain point, it's cheaper to throw out the bus than pay for motor repairs. EV motors last a lot longer and are a lot easier to maintain.

The electric motor might last, all the electronics, probably not.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#140

Post by slfnflctd »

nickysielicki wrote: post #89
sanp wrote: post #14

I still don't get that TCO for EV is higher than Diesel. On the consumer side, let's look at Tesla Model Y vs. Lexus RX 350. I am using "premium" makes on both sides of this equations. If we want to go with a cheaper ICE then it should be compared with a cheaper EV. Idea being, there is a reasonable comparison where EV comes out ahead on TCO. Cost / mile: $0.04 vs. $0.10 Difference in purchase cost: $55K (base model…

In what world is the maintenance cost for a fleet of EV busses going to be less than that of a diesel? There are two orders of magnitude more diesel mechanics than people qualified to work on EV drivetrains.

I think the argument is that EVs will require vastly less maintenance, which makes sense on paper. I'm not sure how well that will bear out in the near to mid term, though, as these are new designs which haven't been put through the paces yet.

It's a pretty big transportation sector we're talking about (half a million of these buses in the US), so it will not be a fast transition and early adopters will be paying higher costs than later ones to iron out the kinks. Most districts are probably waiting for someone else to try it out first.

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