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US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

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Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#101

Post by fiftyfifty »

MengerSponge wrote: post #77

The secondary costs of running a diesel fleet are also huge! Diesel motors generate a substantial amount of fine particulate that is unhealthy for anybody, and particularly unhealthy for children. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC121970/ Even if an electric fleet is the same cost, changing over would save tons of money and alleviate tons of suffering. It's the right thing to do for any ethical reason you…

Even in terms of primary cost, diesel buses are expensive to maintain. My FIL was a mechanic for the local school district for 15 years, so I got a little insight into that aspect of the district. Our medium sized school district, 4 big high schools and all the feeder schools for them, employs around 6 full time mechanics plus their manager with all the equipment and the facility to work on the buses year round plus parts etc. It's not difficult to imagine that cost alone adds at least $1 million to our district's budget annually. In addition they have to have some percentage of extra buses because they are constantly rotating buses out for maintenance. They also have to have at least one extra bus and driver on standby every day because diesel buses breakdown regularly during a route and they have to go out with a second bus and pick up the kids and finish the route.

So if a district can outsource part of that maintenance cost, and electric buses prove to be lower maintenance and more reliable that their diesel counterparts, there are significant savings to be had for the school districts.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#102

Post by anonymouse008 »

ElevenLathe wrote: post #66

These services are already outsourced in many school districts, with the district doing nothing more than contracting out for certain service levels and writing a check. Presumably if it pencils out, those contractors will switch to electric without even needing to consult the board of education.

Do you mind pointing to a few companies who offer said contract services? Is it mostly a metropolitan thing?

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#103

Post by MengerSponge »

jjtheblunt wrote: post #91
MengerSponge wrote: post #77

The secondary costs of running a diesel fleet are also huge! Diesel motors generate a substantial amount of fine particulate that is unhealthy for anybody, and particularly unhealthy for children. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC121970/ Even if an electric fleet is the same cost, changing over would save tons of money and alleviate tons of suffering. It's the right thing to do for any ethical reason you…

(Disclaimer: have driven pure electric for going on 7.5 years) It may be more complex: electricity generation is very dirty in some regions, such as where coal is burned. Is it more dirty than diesel emissions? I have no idea, but old diesels were nasty.

No, it is not more dirty than diesel emissions. Coal plants are stationary, so they can install huge scrubbing apparatus. Diesels have to drag whatever cleanup mechanism they have installed with them, which is inherently limiting.

Also, those coal plants aren't parked outside primary schools idling, and schoolkids aren't spending hours sitting around their smokestacks.

Don't get me wrong: Coal is dirty as sin and radioactive as hell. Coal delenda est.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#104

Post by [deleted] »

speedgoose wrote: post #81
jws wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NHTSA recognizes that large busses are not cars and use a different solution. Large school buses are heavier and distribute crash forces differently than passenger cars and light trucks do. Because of these differences, bus passengers experience much less crash force than those in passenger cars, light trucks, and vans. NHTSA decided the best way to provide crash protection to passengers of large school buses is…

It’s a nice way to say that kids can slam the seats.

[deleted]

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#105

Post by [deleted] »

cpwright wrote: post #49
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a fairly standard reframing when your product has lower TCO but higher upfront costs. If people just look at the upfront cost, they have that 2x or 3x gut reaction and just switch off. Some nerdier types might draw up a spreadsheet and know exactly how many months they'd expect to break even and start saving. People familiar with spreadsheets probably also don't have that much trouble getting loans and paying…

I'm not sure why you would assume that the average school bus buyer can't do a spreadsheet. Our local suburban NY school district is fairly run-of-the mill, and has a budget of $84 million with several million dollars of that being for transportation. We have our own busses and drivers, and they spend about a quarter million dollars a year on diesel fuel. The Superintendent for business affairs that has an MBA from C…

[deleted]

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#106

Post by daemoens »

speedgoose wrote: post #81
jws wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NHTSA recognizes that large busses are not cars and use a different solution. Large school buses are heavier and distribute crash forces differently than passenger cars and light trucks do. Because of these differences, bus passengers experience much less crash force than those in passenger cars, light trucks, and vans. NHTSA decided the best way to provide crash protection to passengers of large school buses is…

It’s a nice way to say that kids can slam the seats.

They'll slam into the seats and still be safer.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#107

Post by kasey_junk »

anonymouse008 wrote: post #102
ElevenLathe wrote: post #66

These services are already outsourced in many school districts, with the district doing nothing more than contracting out for certain service levels and writing a check. Presumably if it pencils out, those contractors will switch to electric without even needing to consult the board of education.

Do you mind pointing to a few companies who offer said contract services? Is it mostly a metropolitan thing?

Chicago Public Schools has dozens of bus contractors. Here is one that is relatively big: https://www.unitedquick.com/

You can find bus contracts given to the owners of single busses though those firms do t have large web presences.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#108

Post by sokoloff »

PaulHoule wrote: post #55
thehappypm wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, because diesel buses are totally not flammable at all.

I bought a number of plastic "jerry cans" that all had stickers on them saying you shouldn't use gasoline or diesel to start fires. Oddly the reason why is different for the two fluids. Gasoline can catch fire quickly and form a fireball, whereas diesel is hard to ignite and won't help start a fire. This movie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_5th_Wave_(film) has a scene where the kids set a school bus on fire with t…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nL10C7FSbE compares the flammability of several types of fuels.

2m08s for Jet-A. 3m50s for #2 diesel. 6m03s for heating oil. 7m30s for kerosene (all those are basically the same and surprising to most how not flammable they are in liquid form). 10m15s for avgas. 11m30s for auto gas.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#109

Post by anonymouse008 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #34
roughly wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just the cost over time, it's the availability of capital in large clumps - also known as "the cost of being poor:" It may be 5x cheaper in the long run to pay 3x the cost today, but if you don't have 3x the cost today, well, good luck.

Capex Opex swaps are pretty common, and it's not just a matter of poverty. (It's why airlines lease their planes.) Swap "subscribe" with "lease" and this article becomes less interesting.

Yeah, and school's budgets are cash tight, with comparatively little ability to fundraise, so any large cash transaction will be DOA.

The swap should take place, and I'm now wondering why this hasn't occurred.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#110

Post by michael1999 »

bell-cot wrote: post #2

Hmm...buses that (per the article) cost 2x or 3x what diesel ones would. From a company that's raising a whole lotta $$$ from VC's. And (plausibly) school districts will get rid of their old diesel bus fleets when they switch over... Is anyone else suspecting an "of course we'll loose money like crazy, until we hit 'em with the massive price increase" business model? EDIT: Wow, huge response. 3 points to add: - Yes,…

It is a different calculation for the school board. For them, the costs of retraining staff, retooling a shop, increasing parts inventory are all big costs. Plus the risk of buying a bunch of lemons.

Leasing them with performance guarantees moves not just the costs, but also the risks to a specialist better suited to carrying them.

I don’t know if this firm is legit, but the deal could make sense.

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