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US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

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Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#71

Post by kube-system »

speedgoose wrote: post #50
elihu wrote: post #30

Apparently there's an important patent on lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries that expires next month (on April 27th). I'm hoping that changes the economics on batteries and that LFPs become cheap and abundant, and widely available from a variety of manufacturers that aren't located in China. LFP seems like the obvious choice for large vehicles like buses unless there's some reason to really need to optimize for r…

Is safety a criteria for school bus in USA? I thought it was only cost since the design is from the last century and many bus don’t even have seatbelts.

School busses have a ton of safety features -- just with a different strategy than is applied to cars. Part of the reason many don't have seat belts is because they are also designed to have safety features that work without seatbelts. The passengers are rowdy kids who might not always wear their seatbelts, so while adding them might increase protection in some cases, a safety design that primarily relies on seatbelts might not actually be a great idea.

US school busses are heavy and sit very high. Busses can be hit by cars with little force imparted to the occupants. The most dangerous thing about school busses is the risk it poses to the other drivers that hit it: https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Cra...

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#72

Post by akira2501 »

sanp wrote: post #14

I still don't get that TCO for EV is higher than Diesel. On the consumer side, let's look at Tesla Model Y vs. Lexus RX 350. I am using "premium" makes on both sides of this equations. If we want to go with a cheaper ICE then it should be compared with a cheaper EV. Idea being, there is a reasonable comparison where EV comes out ahead on TCO. Cost / mile: $0.04 vs. $0.10 Difference in purchase cost: $55K (base model…

How many Diesel repair shops are there vs. heavy duty EV vehicle repair shops?

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#73

Post by akomtu »

adgjlsfhk1 wrote: post #47
Johnny555 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average lifetime of a schoolbus is 10 - 12 years, so if they do manage to keep this service going for a decade, that's pretty good -- in 10 years the schol district would have been ready to refresh their fleet anyway, and hopefully the reason this business can't survive long-term is that electric buses become cheaper and ubiquitous.

Part of the reason for the 10-12 year lifespan is that ICE motors are really complicated and at a certain point, it's cheaper to throw out the bus than pay for motor repairs. EV motors last a lot longer and are a lot easier to maintain.

Are batteries going to last this long? And batteries are usually 50% of the vehicle price.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#74

Post by Gracana »

fasteddie31003 wrote: post #15

I believe batteries and electric motors can replace almost all applications of gas engines. However, diesel engines still are a step too far now IMO. Most people have never operated a diesel engine. Their efficiency is very impressive. My 7,000 lbs truck with a Cummins diesel engine gets better MPGs than my partner's 4,000 lbs Mini Cooper Countryman.

What is your truck? RAM 3500s with Cummins diesels come in 7000lb configurations, but we're talking ~15mpg, nowhere close to a countryman.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#75

Post by pg_bot »

sremani wrote: post #52
elihu wrote: post #30

Apparently there's an important patent on lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries that expires next month (on April 27th). I'm hoping that changes the economics on batteries and that LFPs become cheap and abundant, and widely available from a variety of manufacturers that aren't located in China. LFP seems like the obvious choice for large vehicles like buses unless there's some reason to really need to optimize for r…

I do not know if we are in a commodity super-cycle but Li price is brrrrrrr. https://www.dailymetalprice.com/metalpricecharts.php?c=li&u=... The days of falling battery prices in dollar terms are over.

I think you are underestimating the ingenuity of humans. Shortages can lead to new, more efficient ways of doing things. High prices are going to encourage more lithium production, or research into perfect substitutes. It's highly unlikely that in a decade battery prices will be higher than they are today.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#76

Post by itsoktocry »

sanp wrote: post #14

I still don't get that TCO for EV is higher than Diesel. On the consumer side, let's look at Tesla Model Y vs. Lexus RX 350. I am using "premium" makes on both sides of this equations. If we want to go with a cheaper ICE then it should be compared with a cheaper EV. Idea being, there is a reasonable comparison where EV comes out ahead on TCO. Cost / mile: $0.04 vs. $0.10 Difference in purchase cost: $55K (base model…

>I am using "premium" makes on both sides of this equations

I guess, but a "premium" Model Y doesn't have any features that a far lesser ICE doesn't have, with inferior build quality. That's kind of the point. A premium Honda, VW or Toyota SUV are better comparisons, and substantially cheaper. Of course, that makes the TCO much more competitive...

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#77

Post by MengerSponge »

The secondary costs of running a diesel fleet are also huge! Diesel motors generate a substantial amount of fine particulate that is unhealthy for anybody, and particularly unhealthy for children.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC121970/

Even if an electric fleet is the same cost, changing over would save tons of money and alleviate tons of suffering. It's the right thing to do for any ethical reason you can consider.

Unless, I suppose, you're intent on making the poor suffer. Diesel buses are very cost-effective at accomplishing that.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#78

Post by gbear605 »

gruez wrote: post #63
roywiggins wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the '90s the dairy industry managed to get "got milk" posters into approximately every US elementary school.

Was that through private businesses, or through the government?

In my school district, the milk producer just gave a slight discount on the milk they sold to the school. They were still making a profit, just slightly less per unit (and presumably more overall since sales went up).

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#80

Post by stonogo »

danans wrote: post #46
ilikeatari wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a specific data set you are referencing? How about other components like Ownership and Support?

I've just done the math on my car operating costs. At today's gas prices (admittedly high due to the Ukraine war), the price of electricity in CA would have to more than triple for me to pay the same as I would for gas. Before the recent gas price spike it was like 2.25X to use gas. > How about other components like Ownership and Support? Do you mean depreciation and maintenance? Depreciation on recent EVs has been j…

My results are similar to yours. I don't know if you can put a price on silent, non-oil-based, clean-running driving experiences, but it does come with the charge-time pain point. I look forward to the five-minute refuel I left behind to get the other benefits of an EV...
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