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Kharkiv Rubyist during the war: We are still here

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Re: Kharkiv Rubyist during the war: We are still here

#31

Post by tgBax »

_bhjy wrote: post #18
hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It still seems illogical. Kharkiv had a huge Russian population. I had some friends from there who sighed "finally!" when they heard Putin started the invasion. They truly believed he would end the years-long conflict and finally they will live in peace on a territory more or less Russian. Today, there is no single Russian in Kharkiv who would support Putin or even believe what he says. He betrayed his own people.

The entire invasion is illogical. There was arguably some sense to Crimea - there is no sense in this invasion.

There certainly are reasons (not a value judgement), some of them cynical:

- Crimea wants to control the canal from the Djnepr, which had been shut off by Ukraine.

- Russia wants the coast line to control more gas fields in the Black Sea. The U.S. of course also want to control them by proxy (see Burisma/Biden). Snake island also controls some of the fields.

- Rightly or wrongly, Russia is scared of NATO expansion.

I think it may be the case that the great Russian empire theory is a pretext that is put forward by Putin for his own population and eagerly taken up by the West for propaganda. Attacks on Kyiv (stalled) and Kharkiv could be diversions from the south. As noted above, the Kharkiv attack does not make sense though.

Re: Kharkiv Rubyist during the war: We are still here

#32

Post by Symbiote »

scrose wrote: post #4

On the topic of helping, does anyone have ideas/tips on how to help refugees attempting to communicate with the embassies in another country for refugee status/assistance? I have extended family from Ukraine that speaks very little English and also can’t communicate in the countries native language that they fled to, but my partner and I cannot call those embassies to help relay information because we’re in the USA a…

What do you mean "we’re in the USA and our numbers don’t work"?

There are Facebook groups here in Denmark seeking Ukrainian speakers etc, there might be ones for the country you need.

Re: Kharkiv Rubyist during the war: We are still here

#33

Post by psandersen »

redwood wrote: post #5
toyg wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Visions that were not shed decades ago as we falsely believed. Who is "we" exactly...? Because the GWB presidency was very much an embodiment of such a vision, and it was only stopped by a literal hurricane.

It's interesting to me to hear you say that. I would say that about Trump but not GWB in hindsight. At that time I was of the opinion you share and I remember feeling that GWB was essentially everything that was bad in the world… but in hindsight I realize how narrowly scoped my vision was and the spectrum is so much bigger and in fact I now believe it's important to be willing to find common ground with conservative…

Not an American but similar view of GWB. However... I feel leaders should be judged by the direction they tried to move things; and the Bush Administration did not move the USA in a more lawful, democratic and humanistic direction to say the least.

There are many steps to move a democracy to a totalitarian state, and the time to hit the breaks is at earliest signs of fascist behavior.

Abstractly, the people who excused and weakened institutions may have done more to create an eventual totalitarian state than the asshole who moved the final 1% and seized power.

Re: Kharkiv Rubyist during the war: We are still here

#34

Post by fer »

scrose wrote: post #4

On the topic of helping, does anyone have ideas/tips on how to help refugees attempting to communicate with the embassies in another country for refugee status/assistance? I have extended family from Ukraine that speaks very little English and also can’t communicate in the countries native language that they fled to, but my partner and I cannot call those embassies to help relay information because we’re in the USA a…

Locally we have Ukrainian (and Russian) Facebook groups full with people willing to help for such things. For anything else I've been using the speakerphone workaround.

Re: Kharkiv Rubyist during the war: We are still here

#35

Post by Radim »

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #11
saiya-jin wrote: post #7

> There is a rumor that Putin had recently made a personal order to damage as much of Kharkiv as possible, to retaliate for breaking the hope of being “pro-Russian.” And however absurd it might sound, I am close to believing it because there seems to be no other point in doing what they do now. I have the same impression, just old bitter fart and shadow of a man he once was, entrenched in his untouchable position, th…

It still seems illogical. Kharkiv had a huge Russian population. I had some friends from there who sighed "finally!" when they heard Putin started the invasion. They truly believed he would end the years-long conflict and finally they will live in peace on a territory more or less Russian. Today, there is no single Russian in Kharkiv who would support Putin or even believe what he says. He betrayed his own people.

Even some of my Ukrainian friends (we have a huge UA diaspora here in Prague) share the same sentiment.

They were heavily pro-Russian to start with. Strongly against the corrupted Ukrainian government & oligarchs, remembering the Odessa massacre during Maidan etc.

But they feel betrayed now – Putin seems to have lost all the goodwill there, the hearts of even those people.

Re: Kharkiv Rubyist during the war: We are still here

#36

Post by [deleted] »

Timwi wrote: post #23
saiya-jin wrote: post #7

> There is a rumor that Putin had recently made a personal order to damage as much of Kharkiv as possible, to retaliate for breaking the hope of being “pro-Russian.” And however absurd it might sound, I am close to believing it because there seems to be no other point in doing what they do now. I have the same impression, just old bitter fart and shadow of a man he once was, entrenched in his untouchable position, th…

How do you remove Russia’s permanent veto right if they have the permanent right to veto that?

[deleted]

Re: Kharkiv Rubyist during the war: We are still here

#37

Post by Barrin92 »

_bhjy wrote: post #18
hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It still seems illogical. Kharkiv had a huge Russian population. I had some friends from there who sighed "finally!" when they heard Putin started the invasion. They truly believed he would end the years-long conflict and finally they will live in peace on a territory more or less Russian. Today, there is no single Russian in Kharkiv who would support Putin or even believe what he says. He betrayed his own people.

The entire invasion is illogical. There was arguably some sense to Crimea - there is no sense in this invasion.

I think it's fairly straight forward. Ideally capture or if necessary destroy Ukraine as to prevent Ukraine turning into, from the Russian perspective, an 'anti-Russian Russia'. The vision is that both Belarus and Ukraine are extensions of the Russian state and as such a Western aligned Ukraine isn't going to be tolerated.

Re: Kharkiv Rubyist during the war: We are still here

#39

Post by baybal2 »

redwood wrote: post #5
toyg wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Visions that were not shed decades ago as we falsely believed. Who is "we" exactly...? Because the GWB presidency was very much an embodiment of such a vision, and it was only stopped by a literal hurricane.

It's interesting to me to hear you say that. I would say that about Trump but not GWB in hindsight. At that time I was of the opinion you share and I remember feeling that GWB was essentially everything that was bad in the world… but in hindsight I realize how narrowly scoped my vision was and the spectrum is so much bigger and in fact I now believe it's important to be willing to find common ground with conservative…

GWB's great sin is he gave China, and Russia time.

The 15 years USA spent running after imaginary boogeymen sowed the seeds of what we are dealing with today.

There are many aspects to this folly, but most bad were:

1. Okaying what Russia, and China were doing

2. Wasting trillions on completely pointless war

3. Squandered overnight the enormous goodwill USA carried from successful 199X

4. Stalled the wheel of democratisation around the world

Re: Kharkiv Rubyist during the war: We are still here

#40

Post by dc-programmer »

cik2e wrote: post #24
redwood wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting to me to hear you say that. I would say that about Trump but not GWB in hindsight. At that time I was of the opinion you share and I remember feeling that GWB was essentially everything that was bad in the world… but in hindsight I realize how narrowly scoped my vision was and the spectrum is so much bigger and in fact I now believe it's important to be willing to find common ground with conservative…

Too many people have let their vision become consumed by the fact that Trump was an insufferable asshole. A nuanced discussion can be had about his time in office and his actual actions, without giving undue weight to the shit that comes out of the man's mouth. Just as an example of something most democrats would applaud, he signed an executive order to keep federal unemployment assistance flowing, while congress was…

I think it’s too soon to make an assessment. Trump spent his whole presidency casting aspersions on NATO, and tried to cut defense aid to Ukraine. If this situation escalates further, he may be viewed as a James Buchanan figure.

And I do think things may get worse. Currently a sovereign country is being invaded and civilians are being targeted. The second order effects might be even worse

* If Russia pulls resources from Syria then the civil war might come to a head. The regime leans heavily on Russian air support

* Russian paramilitary provides defense for unpopular governments like Tanzania’s. If they got pulled these countries might go into civil war

* Ukraine and Russia are two of the worlds largest exporters of grain. Countries like Egypt are big importers (Egypt actually subsidizes the purchases heavily). If grain costs go up (and other commodities like oil) this could cause unrest

* Nuclear war

* Cyber war targeting key infrastructure. The possibility of massive collateral damage is high (see Not Petya)

Some of these things are not intrinsically bad (I have no love for despotic governments for example) but the potential sum total of events could throw the world into chaos.

The War on Terror was a massive mistake. America needs to keep the crazy evangelicals who want to bring on the end times by attacking the Middle East far from the oval office. But taking on an isolationist position in response to the 2000’s would be a massive mistake. It’s clearer than ever that power vacuums have to be filled

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