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Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

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Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#261

As a zen Buddhist, I've always kinda felt our Tibetan 'dharma brothers' style of buddhism (admittedly, I don't know a lot about) feels much more like a proper religion than the kind of thing I've been into.. Which put me off quite a lot of it, I still hope to someday visit the place. It’s pretty sad that such an essentially peaceful and introspective group of people are abused thus, even if they believe in some prett…

> chan (which became zen)

Chan and zen are the same thing, literally the same word.

> I’ve never worked out what china wants in Tibet tbh though, does anyone have a clue?

I think the failure of China to divest its non-Chinese territories after the downfall of the Qing Empire mostly occurred because no one wanted to take responsibility for losing territory.

For Tibet in particular, though, it seems worth noting that Tibet is the source of both of China's major rivers. The Yellow and Yangtze rivers are not less significant to China than the Nile is to Egypt. Look what's happening between Egypt and Ethiopia.

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know, this is not simple with so much time passed and I am not a fan of proofing heritage or ethnicity to be allowed to life anywhere. And I am not directly involved, so I do not propose any concrete solution, due to lack of detail knowledge. But I do see some solutions. Local autonomy. Federalism. Different districts with different systems. End of absolute rule of the CCP - no more interfering in cultural and reli…

> monastaries The monasteries including their lands? That's absurd.

Why is that absurd? The catholic church did some pretty horrible things in the past, too. But they changed (and still have most of their churches and land) and it seems, so did the Tibetian Buddhism. So like I said, it is complicated to reverse expropriation, but if it is possible and the tibetians want their temples back, it would sound right to me, to give them at least some important ones.

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciated it. I spent a little time looking at a map after reading it. The geographical, cultural and political relationships between India and Tibet are not discussed in the US as often as China-Tibet. Threaded forums are well able to accommodate these kinds of small side discussions, too.

Which is so surprising. Religious, cultural and political connections between India and Tibet are old and historic.

Absolutely. We are just bad at geography and obsessed with China.

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> monastaries The monasteries including their lands? That's absurd.

Why is that absurd? The catholic church did some pretty horrible things in the past, too. But they changed (and still have most of their churches and land) and it seems, so did the Tibetian Buddhism. So like I said, it is complicated to reverse expropriation, but if it is possible and the tibetians want their temples back, it would sound right to me, to give them at least some important ones.

The catholic church is not comparable to the social system in Tibet. When you say "let the Catholic church keep their lands", it is a much smaller claim than saying "let the monastaries keep their land" as the monasteries were the center of the feudal system in Tibet.

They owned over half of all of the arable land in Tibet and had legally bound serfs working that land for the benefit of the ecclesiastical class.

Your request is more akin to saying that Europe should return the land belonging to feudal lords (ie. most land).

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats true, but you do not have to look long to see, that Tibet was a feudal theocracy, with no dissent allowed, either. But that is history. Modern Tibet deserves to make their own choices, I hope they get the chance to make them one day. And about old Tibet, I recommend "Seven Years in Tibet", real story of a Nazi who fled a british war prisoner camp in india and then spend 7 years in Tibet, also as a teacher for t…

How would modern Tibetans making their own choices work? They're majority Han Chinese now so are you proposing some kind of apartheid or ethnostate, or Han dominated democracy?

Tibet is not majority Han chinese, not sure where you pulled this fact from.

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They use "harmony" the same way we use "freedom": as propaganda for control and imperialism. How do you sell violence to the populace? For collectivist countries, it's "they are unlike us, we will show them our ways." For individualist countries, it's "we are unlike them, we will show them our ways." It doesn't really matter what noble buzzword you attach to your violent ideology, in the end you have a hierarchical s…

Your last paragraph goes too far to me. China represses its whole population. Yes, all empires are inherently "evil", but there are far more freedoms in the "west" than in China. You can't just equate them. This site we are talking on could not exist in China.

I'm not equating them. I choose to live in the West, after all, and I describe China as a great potential future enemy.

I agree that China is more oppressive towards its own citizenry. America's evil is often directed externally; there is a reason much of the Muslim world calls us the Great Satan.

In attempting to describe China, I am not defending it, but pointing out their different goals. They don't strive for personal freedom, but harmony and societal stability -- at an extreme cost to those who do not fit in. Individual liberty is not a strong concern in their culture, and from birth children are often taught to not stick out from the crowd too much. The raised nail gets the hammer.

Is that a bad thing? Yes, I think so, to the extent that they do it. But freedom isn't an absolute good either. Too little, and you get a coercive autocracy where citizens have no autonomy. Too much, and you get balkanization that turns into its own kind of social discord, whether it's an extreme political divide in a democracy, great wealth and power divides, ethnic conflicts, a civil war, or warlordism like Somalia/Iraq/etc. At a societal scale, too little freedom almost always means extreme suffering, but the inverse isn't always true: maximum freedom does not mean maximum happiness.

On a political compass, freedom and authoritarianism may be two sides of an axis, but they are not the only matters of concern. The level of personal freedom in a society directly influences any other axis you may choose to plot: happiness, wealth, equality, sustainability, stability, etc.

In any given society there are always people who seek power over others. The rule of law, be it the Magna Carta or a Constitution, is intended to temper the power of traditional royalty or modern autocracies, to varying degrees of success. I'd argue the most essential function of a democracy is to ensure no one person/group gets too powerful, that checks and balances aren't a side effect of a good democracy but a defining characteristic. That requires a check upon the freedoms of the powerful in order to protect those with less power from exploitation... that's been a truism carried from antiquity through the industrial era and onto the present day. Otherwise you get Hitler, Putin, Trump... all monsters created by democracies in decline, all strong-men who rose to power selling the idea of power for an in-group by exploiting some out-group.

In the modern West, I think the idea of "freedom" is often discussed as both "freedom to" (own guns, have an abortion, start a business, vote, marry who you choose, worship as you please, pay the wages you want, choose the suppliers you want) and "freedom from" (extreme poverty, labor exploitation, slavery, monopolies, a military draft, religious control, vote suppression, WASP male dominance, autocracy). With our freedoms, we've developed a roughly 50/50 split on any major political topic, and as a result our government has been quagmired for decades, our citizens hate each other, and the only things most Americans can agree on is that the government is broken and the country is going to shit. Our enemies savvily exploit these divisions to further divide and conquer us.

China after Mao simply tackled those kinds of controversies by decree, shut everyone up, and focused on transforming their infrastructure and economy with an emphasis on harmony over liberty. In the process they rose from a impoverished, war-torn peasant economy to the world's next superpower. Some of their citizens find this an acceptable tradeoff, especially considering they never really had a history of democracy. Going from divine emperors to nationalist-capitalist autocracy (under the guise of agrarian communism, but who are we kidding) drastically improved the quality of life for hundreds of millions of people, more than the entire population of the USA. There are more middle-class Chinese than there are Americans (of any class). That is no small undertaking, even if outsiders like us don't agree with their methods.

Would we choose to give up the freedoms we have now to become more like China? No. You wouldn't, and I wouldn't. But would our answers be different if we were a peasant in 1980s China, who didn't have much freedom to begin with, and were looking at imminent starvation and death? I don't know. Mao's revolution failed and destroyed the country, yet in its wake somehow their people picked up the pieces and clawed their way back to relevance, and now, strength. It wasn't pretty, and the loss of personal liberty was part of the price they paid. It's easy to judge that value system out of its historical context, from a comfortable seat in the West, but I imagine for their people on the ground back then, it was a very different situation.

Anyhow... back to the topic at large. Freedom is often a loaded word, carrying so much cultural baggage and weaponized politicism that it's difficult to use in everyday discussion anymore. I usually find it less emotionally charged to discuss freedom in adjacent terms: individualism and collectivism.

The USA is strongly individualistic, China strongly collectivist. In between, some of Europe is more individualistic (the UK), while others are more collectivist (Finland). In aggregate the wealthiest, happiest, most developed countries tend to be those that are highly free, but also rather homogenous and collectivist. The United States may be more free than others, but its freedoms typically favor the elites (white gun owners, WASP business owners, people arising from the European tradition of individualism, etc.), and as a result it suffers in other measures of human development (healthcare, education, equality, etc.).

Arguably there is a wrong place to be on the individualist vs collectivist spectrum: on either extreme. But there is not necessarily a "right" place. Much of the West leans individualist, much of the East leans the other way. We see both strong and weak countries in both, and happy and miserable citizens in both. Different societies have different ideals, and different power structures, and from their values arise different laws and propaganda. It's not as simple as saying freer countries are better. There is both a value and a cost to our freedoms.

Only by NOT equating us to China can we tease out potential changes for the future. I'd argue that America would see better societal outcomes by pivoting more towards collectivism, and China would see better societal outcomes by pivoting more towards individualism. In the middle both would have to tease out what sorts of freedoms to protect and which to sacrifice. Personally I'd hope both would ultimately land somewhere near the Scandinavians, but with the way things are going, probably both are headed towards ultra-authoritarianism instead.

Back home, in the US, I don't think our fractured democracy will survive the challenges of the next few decades... we are a country now without vision, unity, or purpose. Once the advertising bubble collapses and China and Russia catch up to our tech and services sectors, then soon after overtake our military, there won't be much left for us. Because we were so blindly chasing personal freedoms we forget anymore what it means to be a country.

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#267
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO only, not an expert/informed analysis: Buddhism can be a risk to Chinese harmony if left to a separate authority (the real Dalai Lama). The Chinese grand social experiment of a strong state can only really work if they are relatively culturally homogenous, whether in Tibet or Hong Kong or Xinjiang or Taiwan. Dissent plants the seeds of change, and the CCP's system doesn't work when there is too much diversity of…

"Their government doesn't work on 4-year competitive cycles like ours does..." Not that I don't agree with your idea that the CCP work on a longer time horizon than the US govt, but China does run on short-term cycles, namely its 5-year plans: https://cset.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/t0284_14th_Fi...

It's not so much that they have to plan for 100 years at once, but that they can execute strategies lasting more than one power cycle. Their pendulum (and with it, bills and executive orders and social effects) doesn't reset every 4-8 years.

Edit: basically what michaelscott said already

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#268
post #53

I lived in Dharamshala (home to the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan government-in-exile) for 3 months a few years ago. My partner at the time went back to the US to visit family, and I didn't want to leave Asia so I went there since I had some interest in Buddhism at the time, too. In random book stores, I met actual monks who had served time (in China) as political prisoners. One of which had also written a book about it…

Sorry to ask such a macabre question... but why would China ever release political prisoners? Moreover, why wouldn't they just disappear them? I'm in no way suggesting they should or asserting China's great because they have standards when it comes to taking political prisoners... Nor am I stating that China is so barbarous that I would expect nothing less of them... I just don't know and wonder about the answers to…

Same reason Gulag prisoners were released. It's a bureaucracy. The law says that this "crime" warrants a 15 year sentence. So he is sentenced to 15y. He is kept in the same labor camp with thieves &c. If he survives, he walks, because that's what the bureaucratic protocol says. Sometimes there is a separate rule that people like him are to be given an extra, say, 5 years for some "regime violation". However, the point is that if _all_ political crimes warrant a life sentence, then the deterrent value of prison disappears.

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that absurd? The catholic church did some pretty horrible things in the past, too. But they changed (and still have most of their churches and land) and it seems, so did the Tibetian Buddhism. So like I said, it is complicated to reverse expropriation, but if it is possible and the tibetians want their temples back, it would sound right to me, to give them at least some important ones.

The catholic church is not comparable to the social system in Tibet. When you say "let the Catholic church keep their lands", it is a much smaller claim than saying "let the monastaries keep their land" as the monasteries were the center of the feudal system in Tibet. They owned over half of all of the arable land in Tibet and had legally bound serfs working that land for the benefit of the ecclesiastical class. Your…

"to give them at least some important ones."

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#270

As a zen Buddhist, I've always kinda felt our Tibetan 'dharma brothers' style of buddhism (admittedly, I don't know a lot about) feels much more like a proper religion than the kind of thing I've been into.. Which put me off quite a lot of it, I still hope to someday visit the place. It’s pretty sad that such an essentially peaceful and introspective group of people are abused thus, even if they believe in some prett…

Tibet is the source of many rivers essential to China and it's south asian neighbours.
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