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CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

theguardian.com

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Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#331

Post by ZoomZoomZoom »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #284
ZoomZoomZoom wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Would you say the police did anything wrong? Yes? They beat the man.

...and saved the child. Wouldn't it have been wrong to let a child die?

Saving the child would be the consequence of the wrong action. It just happens that this particular consequence is the desired one. This doesn't magically transform the ethical value of an action. Thinking otherwise ("Finis sanctificat media") is the root of all kinds of evil in the world.

Should they have done it (acted wrongly)? I don't know, they have their own free will.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#332

Post by ericmay »

the_af wrote: post #329
ericmay wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wait, what? I'm American... South American, to be precise. Just to be precise, being American means you're from the United States of America. I don't call myself North American, for example. Neither does anyone else. When you introduce yourself you don't say "Hi I'm the_af and I'm from America". That would be confusing, unless you're actually from the United States. > The US as world police doesn't exactly fill me…

> Just to be precise, being American means you're from the United States of America. I don't call myself North American, for example. Neither does anyone else. When you introduce yourself you don't say "Hi I'm the_af and I'm from America". No, this is false. I call myself American. We're from the Americas. (North)American exceptionalism is bullshit. But my point is that disagreement over US policy and their role as w…

> No, this is false.

Ok. I don't really think I have anything else to add from this point on. Have a good day/evening.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#333

Post by ALittleLight »

rendall wrote: post #323
ALittleLight wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a real case that went to trial in New Zealand. The car thief was on video stealing the car, he confessed to stealing the car (admittedly under torture), and he was able to locate the stolen car and child. As it happens, we know what would've happened had the police not beat him, because they tried that first. The man refused to say where the car was. He would rather let a child die than admit to car theft. Of co…

Cops beat people quite often in the US, and exactly zero-point-never times is it to save the life of a child. Yet for some reason, you find it necessary to bring up that one time in New Zealand to justify torture. I'm sorry, but I find that baffling. Seems to me very much not tuned to reality, but maybe we should just agree to disagree here.

The original comment of yours that I replied to says that "torture = bad" and that all that separates good and bad people is principle. I have two reasons for challenging this. First, it's just not true. Torture, in some cases, is completely justified. These cases are both hypothetical (you need to find the dirty bomb going to kill millions) and real (beat a car thief to save a child). Second is to question the underlying principle that makes torture usually immoral.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#334

Post by buran77 »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #279
mywacaday wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the US abrogating the legal rights of people, terrorist or not, taking them to a black site to avoid their own domestic laws and using them as a training test doll for torture techniques to the point of causing brain damage. At some point every country should be accountable to someone.

Yes, you're right about that. I think teakettle42's objection was to you trying to turn the question around to make climate change the issue that trumps everything else. At least, that's my objection to your original reply.

> I think teakettle42's objection

I'm convinced they know what the ICC is as it's even spelled out above, they just ignore the uncomfortable arguments.

> make climate change the issue

The ICC is the International Criminal Court [0], which is "Trying individuals for genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity, and aggression". The US is not a part of it after formerly withdrawing about 20 years ago. It shares this position with other countries with strong human rights values like China, Sudan, Indonesia, or Israel.

Moreover the US has passed the infamous "American Service-Members' Protection Act" [1] (also known as the "Hague Invasion Act") which authorizes the President of the US to use "all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any U.S. or allied personnel being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Court" and also prohibits the United States from providing military aid to countries which had ratified the treaty establishing the court. This has exceptions if the countries in question already have bilateral agreements with the US to the same effect. The US went as far as to criminalize anyone who works for the ICC [2]. None of this can possibly be in the interest of justice but only to protect the ones who violate human rights as long as they advance US interests.

Since the US does not itself punish or even acknowledge any war crimes commuted by them you can see how this is not a matter of "we can't have others punish our people" it's just "we can't have anyone punish our people". There's only one reason for the situation to look like this and that's quite literally to be able to commit war crimes with impunity.

If you were looking at things that put countries like Russia, China, Israel, and others at the exact same level, it's the ease with which they commit such atrocious crimes and go unpunished. But with "due process". That should tell you everything you need to know about their actual values, not the ones claimed on a forum by people who selectively ignore whatever doesn't fit their world view.

[0] https://www.icc-cpi.int/

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr...

[2] https://theconversation.com/us-punishes-international-crimin...

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#335

Post by throwawaycities »

leereeves wrote: post #306
throwawaycities wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never said it was a complete list. On the other hand you are not distinguishing countries that have signed but not yet ratified the treaty, leaving only 41 members. Of those 41 members feel free to highlight those countries which are shining examples of rule of law and human rights.

> On the other hand you are not distinguishing countries that have signed but not yet ratified the treaty, leaving only 41 members. The US has also signed but not yet ratified the treaty. We're not one of the 41 who haven't signed. > Of those 41 members feel free to highlight those countries which are shining examples of rule of law and human rights. I couldn't name any countries I would consider "shining examples of…

> I did notice that Ukraine, like us, signed but didn't ratify the treaty, which I thought was interesting at this time.

It’s a little more nuanced, Ukraine formally declared acceptance of the jurisdiction of the ICC following Russia’s initial illegal use of force and armed conflict in Ukraine beginning in 2014.

Thereafter Russia withdrew their signature from the Rome Statute in 2016 the day following the ICC report on Crimea classifying Russia’s act as occupation.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#336

Post by cryptonector »

lesuorac wrote: post #298
cryptonector wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a very small step from this to disappearing and torturing dissidents at home. With The View calling for Tucker Carlson to be tried for treason by a military tribunal, I think we're approaching that point. Then when we get there and someone disappears (say, a colleague, a friend of a friend), some will think and even say "they must have done something". How do I know? Because that is what happened in Argentina du…

> With The View calling for Tucker Carlson to be tried for treason by a military tribunal Isn't that the exact opposite of disappearing? I think the examples you're looking for are DHS hotel/detention centers [1] and Chicago's hidden detention centers [2]. [1]: https://abcnews.go.com/Business/marriott-choice-hotels-serve... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homan_Square_facility

Yes, the Homan Sq. facility kinda counts. As for ICE, well, it's somewhat different for people who aren't U.S. persons and aren't legally tourists or temporary residents, though, of course, that should not be license to disappear them, just to deport them (which is not at all the same thing).

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#337

Post by rendall »

ALittleLight wrote: post #333
rendall wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cops beat people quite often in the US, and exactly zero-point-never times is it to save the life of a child. Yet for some reason, you find it necessary to bring up that one time in New Zealand to justify torture. I'm sorry, but I find that baffling. Seems to me very much not tuned to reality, but maybe we should just agree to disagree here.

The original comment of yours that I replied to says that "torture = bad" and that all that separates good and bad people is principle. I have two reasons for challenging this. First, it's just not true. Torture, in some cases, is completely justified. These cases are both hypothetical (you need to find the dirty bomb going to kill millions) and real (beat a car thief to save a child). Second is to question the under…

I can ask it no clearer: Given that your counterfactual is an exceedingly rare edge case, why do you feel it is important to counter the valuable moral heuristic of "torture=bad"? What are you gaining by doing that?

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#338

Post by emilsedgh »

cryptonector wrote: post #293
mrtksn wrote: post #11

This is the kind of stuff that probably makes some people’s job down the pipe easier and at the same time undermines the Western civilization. Make no mistake, no US citizen outside of the political class benefits from this or other atrocities. The exact same goes for the surveillance programs. Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. The whole anti establishment movement rallies around stuff like thi…

It's a very small step from this to disappearing and torturing dissidents at home. With The View calling for Tucker Carlson to be tried for treason by a military tribunal, I think we're approaching that point. Then when we get there and someone disappears (say, a colleague, a friend of a friend), some will think and even say "they must have done something". How do I know? Because that is what happened in Argentina du…

You don't need hypothetical Tucker Carlson situations in a world where Julian Assange and Ed Snowden are alive.

I live in the US now but I come from a third world country (Iran) where such atrocities are commonplace. And let me tell you. What is happening to Assange shows that when it matters, the intelligence community is above the law and not that different from those bizarre authoritarian regimes. It's just that their propaganda machine is just more successful at "spinning the stories" and making people believe Ed Snowden and Julian Assange are anything but heroes.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#339

Post by ALittleLight »

rendall wrote: post #337
ALittleLight wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original comment of yours that I replied to says that "torture = bad" and that all that separates good and bad people is principle. I have two reasons for challenging this. First, it's just not true. Torture, in some cases, is completely justified. These cases are both hypothetical (you need to find the dirty bomb going to kill millions) and real (beat a car thief to save a child). Second is to question the under…

I can ask it no clearer: Given that your counterfactual is an exceedingly rare edge case, why do you feel it is important to counter the valuable moral heuristic of "torture=bad"? What are you gaining by doing that?

If I said "All prime numbers are odd" I would not question what you gain by bringing up the example of 2.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#340

Post by baxuz »

hguant wrote: post #254
black_puppydog wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's why the US is increasingly seen as nothing more than a bully on the international stage. And to the point of the root comment, this will fall back on everyone in the US, you included.

I think, while this might have been the perception up until a few weeks ago, the invasion of Ukraine has shown the world what a true "bully" on the international stage looks like. There will always be cloistered individuals who think that anyone who isn't "pure" (for an increasingly variable definition of pure) is evil. That opinion is absolutely fine to have until reality strikes. The bubble of people who post on HN…

The US has killed a whole lot more people and committed a whole lot more war crimes and crimes against humanity than the USSR did in the past 70 years.

Possibly more than any other country in the world.

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