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CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

theguardian.com

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Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#321

Post by throwawaycities »

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #259
throwawaycities wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to hear this all the time in law school, something to the effect that the US should never relinquish its sovereignty by signing the Rome Statute and subject itself to the International Criminal Court. This was at the height of the US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the associated allegations of POW torture and abuse (e.g. Abu Ghraib, waterboarding, guantanamo bay, etc…). How ironic 20 years later the very sa…

If the US joined the ICC they would have the right to send US judges to the Hague. It wouldn't be a "foreign court". But I think the real issue is that the CIA doesn't want oversight from anyone foreign or domestic.

Not sure you replied to the right person I never called the ICC a “foreign court.”

However, whether or not US judges are, or may be, appointed to the ICC or any other tribunal, US judges don’t make them domestic courts nor would they apply domestic law.

From the time of the Nuremberg Trials these kinds of courts are commonly called international tribunals in English, the ICC is just a proper name of one such international tribunal. Another includes the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, which was not a domestic court.

Arguably the first hybrid international tribunal/domestic court was the Special Court for Sierra Leon where both international law and domestic laws were applied. If Liberia ever successfully gets a war crimes it is likely to be a similar hybrid international tribunal/domestic court approach. Coincidentally I was part of a law clinic that represented a number of Liberian refugees and torture victims and obtained a $22M judgment against the son of the Liberian ex-President Charles Taylor in the US under the Foreign Tort Claims Act. If you’ve ever seen the movie Lord of War, the son is the character in this clip [2] with the golden AK-47 though the names were changed to Baptiste it’s otherwise pretty accurate, down to the fact Charles “Chucky” Taylor Jr. was a private school kid in Florida with a normal life until he went to Liberia and become the head of his Father’s security force ironically called Anti-terrorism Unit.

[1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=go9kV4nxsfk

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#322

Post by GrothendieckA »

hguant wrote: post #254
black_puppydog wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's why the US is increasingly seen as nothing more than a bully on the international stage. And to the point of the root comment, this will fall back on everyone in the US, you included.

I think, while this might have been the perception up until a few weeks ago, the invasion of Ukraine has shown the world what a true "bully" on the international stage looks like. There will always be cloistered individuals who think that anyone who isn't "pure" (for an increasingly variable definition of pure) is evil. That opinion is absolutely fine to have until reality strikes. The bubble of people who post on HN…

Well, then I pass the word to American diplomat (and architect of the Cold war) George Kennan, who wrote an article in NYT in 1997(!), claiming NATO (i.e. US) expansion to Russian borders to be fateful error: https://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/05/opinion/a-fateful-error.h...

Can't you see that Ukraine war is the direct consequence of this decision? To reinforce the statement: all public polls in 90s showed Russians to be very enthusiastic about cooperating with West, they truly believed that the Western model is just and brings prosperity. But it is US' political arrogance and notorious "exceptionality" distracted not only authorities, but people from believing US. People lost trust in US even before propaganda started to arise. Think about it, my American friend.

Of course, living in such a safe island as USA, far from potential enemies and with insanely huge military budget you might think it is not your problem. And obviously you do. But keep in mind that every consequence has a cause.

In 90s US had a unique chance to make this world a better and safer place, but instead US planted seeds of nowadays' wars. Have you heard of Wolfowitz Doctrine (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfowitz_Doctrine)? Even written in diplomatic language, it is horrific. Current US foreign policy is no better.

So please don't BS us that US "defends and promotes democracy across the world", because it simply doesn't. You accuse people on HN of "living in cloister", but it is you who transmits US slogans without slightest hint of critical thinking. Dixi

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#323

Post by rendall »

ALittleLight wrote: post #294
rendall wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My scenario is a real life event that actually happened. Not really. It was a story that a philosophy book used to illustrate a conundrum. It bore resemblance to "actually happened" like a film "based on true events". Are we taking the word of the cops and philosophers or does the man himself have something to say about it? What would have happened if the cops didn't beat the man? We will never know. But ok, let's…

It's a real case that went to trial in New Zealand. The car thief was on video stealing the car, he confessed to stealing the car (admittedly under torture), and he was able to locate the stolen car and child. As it happens, we know what would've happened had the police not beat him, because they tried that first. The man refused to say where the car was. He would rather let a child die than admit to car theft. Of co…

Cops beat people quite often in the US, and exactly zero-point-never times is it to save the life of a child. Yet for some reason, you find it necessary to bring up that one time in New Zealand to justify torture. I'm sorry, but I find that baffling. Seems to me very much not tuned to reality, but maybe we should just agree to disagree here.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#324

Post by apocolyps6 »

egisspegis wrote: post #309
gambler wrote: post #266

I am sure after learning this all Americans will take to the streets and after a massive protest the government will defund CIA and prosecute everyone responsible for the related crimes. Right? And if that doesn't happen, European companies will cancel American accounts, IKEA will close shop here, GOG will refuse to sell games in US, etc, etc. Right? Because, as I've learned on HN in the last two weeks, all citizens…

I'm sure they will when US starts carpet bombing Canada's cities.

So the Middle East and South America is okay but Canada is off limits?

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#325

Post by cryptonector »

lesuorac wrote: post #298
cryptonector wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a very small step from this to disappearing and torturing dissidents at home. With The View calling for Tucker Carlson to be tried for treason by a military tribunal, I think we're approaching that point. Then when we get there and someone disappears (say, a colleague, a friend of a friend), some will think and even say "they must have done something". How do I know? Because that is what happened in Argentina du…

> With The View calling for Tucker Carlson to be tried for treason by a military tribunal Isn't that the exact opposite of disappearing? I think the examples you're looking for are DHS hotel/detention centers [1] and Chicago's hidden detention centers [2]. [1]: https://abcnews.go.com/Business/marriott-choice-hotels-serve... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homan_Square_facility

> Isn't that the exact opposite of disappearing?

Asking for a civilian to be tried for treason by a military tribunal for saying... the same things that a government official has said, but in a way that makes the government look bad, is the same thing as abandoning the rule of law.

We've only ever done such things during the Civil War, and even then Lincoln only suspended Habeas Corpus in limited places as needed. And Lincoln violated the Constitution in that case, as suspension of Habeas Corpus is, by its location in Article I of the U.S. Constitution, clearly only something Congress can do (though Article I, section 9(2), does not actually say so), and Chief Justice Taney correctly concluded as much in Ex Parte Merryman. (That said, I think Lincoln by and large did the right thing.)

Yes, we've had wartime restrictions on speech that sucked and were not constitutional and should not have been used at all, both in WWI and WWII. But we didn't treat such speech as Treason, nor did we have military tribunals for those speakers, nor did we suspend Habeas Corpus at any time other than during the Civil War. And those were declared wars. Trial of civilians by military tribunals is really only something you'd expect in a civil war, and only when the constitutional order has fallen apart.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#326

Post by ericmay »

the_af wrote: post #320
ericmay wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oh, I dont think its impossible for a supranational entity backed by national militaries to act as a policeman rather than a mafia don. One person's policeman is another's mafia don. The international system as it exists, exists how you're describing it (supranational entity backed by national militaries) - it's just that the absence of the premier and effective military (America) makes that infeasible. So railing…

> being anti-America Wait, what? I'm American... South American, to be precise. The US as world police doesn't exactly fill me with confidence, given their track record in our part of the Americas. Whether this world policing is a "US liberal" or a "US right-wing" thing is of no interest to me. Both camps will call anyone who disagrees anti-American, anyway. (I think right now it's more of a "US liberal" thing but it…

> Wait, what? I'm American... South American, to be precise.

Just to be precise, being American means you're from the United States of America. I don't call myself North American, for example. Neither does anyone else. When you introduce yourself you don't say "Hi I'm the_af and I'm from America". That would be confusing, unless you're actually from the United States.

> The US as world police doesn't exactly fill me with confidence, given their track record in our part of the Americas.

Compared to what?

> Whether this world policing is a "US liberal" or a "US right-wing" thing is of no interest to me. Both camps will call anyone who disagrees anti-American, anyway. (I think right now it's more of a "US liberal" thing but it used to be "US center-right/neocon". US politics are confusing!).

The "let's get America out of international organizations" rhetoric are right-wing talking points propped up by countries that seek to divide democracies. Brexit is another good example. It's not that you're being called "anti-American" it's just that you're incorrect. The rhetorical talking points that discredit our international institutions and create anti-American sentiment seek to destroy those institutions (because they're maintained by the United States) to get the US to withdraw from those organizations to collapse them.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#327

Post by dc-programmer »

cheeze wrote: post #234
gerbilly wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's HN for you. I honestly don't know why I keep coming here. This is a safe space for rationalisation, we can't let 'the feels' creep in and threaten that. Also it would be way too 'political' if we assigned a moral valence to torture, and political discussions are discouraged here.

But it's totally okay to get political about COVID and deny, deny, deny here. Such an odd cross section of libertarian "freedom above all else" people and legitimately smart technical folks. I like the technical part, the "this is binary and I believe in freedom above all else" cohort turns me off pretty hard though.

Anything short of libertarian anarchy is a dystopia to these folks. You would actually think that people with a “rationalist” bias would care more about outcomes than elevating deontological ideals above all else but I guess not

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#328

Post by the_af »

naniwaduni wrote: post #271
worik wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

War is not an extension of "diplomacy by other means". War is a crime. The war crimes I listed were a catastrophe for everybody connected.

The idea that war is a crime at the international scale is underpinned by the threat of war, just as the idea that murder is a crime at the personal scale is underpinned by the threat of murder. We fully intentionally put a lot of steps in between because it turns out that dying sucks a lot,[citation needed] but the fact that they stand between radical disruption of quality, er, quantity of life is what gives those s…

> That is to say, war is not other means. It is the primal means of diplomacy from which all others spring forth.

I'm not sure I understand what you're arguing here. Let me spell out my alternative interpretations and tell me which (if any) is what you meant:

a- War is the primary principle or tool of diplomacy. It is by the threat of war that diplomacy without violence can work.

b- Like a-, but with the implication this is the right way, and there's no other non-violent means for humans to resolve their disagreements and organize themselves at the world level. It will always be "my way, or a club to the head".

c- Like a-, but with the implication this is a historical artifact and reflects a sad state of affairs, and that true diplomacy will find a way to work without resorting to the threat of violence. Or at least, that this is a goal worth striving for, even if humans are imperfect.

The distinction matters, because a- and b- make it easy to jump to the conclusion "in this case" violence is warranted ("I hate war, but this is a just war!") and that "boot to neck" diplomacy is sometimes needed and unavoidable. Whereas option c- will always consider resorting to violence a kind of failure and not something to celebrate or chest-thump about.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#329

Post by the_af »

ericmay wrote: post #326
the_af wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> being anti-America Wait, what? I'm American... South American, to be precise. The US as world police doesn't exactly fill me with confidence, given their track record in our part of the Americas. Whether this world policing is a "US liberal" or a "US right-wing" thing is of no interest to me. Both camps will call anyone who disagrees anti-American, anyway. (I think right now it's more of a "US liberal" thing but it…

> Wait, what? I'm American... South American, to be precise. Just to be precise, being American means you're from the United States of America. I don't call myself North American, for example. Neither does anyone else. When you introduce yourself you don't say "Hi I'm the_af and I'm from America". That would be confusing, unless you're actually from the United States. > The US as world police doesn't exactly fill me…

> Just to be precise, being American means you're from the United States of America. I don't call myself North American, for example. Neither does anyone else. When you introduce yourself you don't say "Hi I'm the_af and I'm from America".

No, this is false. I call myself American. We're from the Americas. (North)American exceptionalism is bullshit.

But my point is that disagreement over US policy and their role as world police, and disagreement with their Manifest Destiny, is not "being anti-American". Even the phrase "anti-American" reeks so much of exceptionalism it should be avoided at all costs.

I'm not anti-American. Being American is about cooperating with all of America, not being a bully who doesn't have to comply with the rules unless you're the one writing them.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#330

Post by jMyles »

l33t2328 wrote: post #174
jMyles wrote: post #18

Holy shit. This is nauseating. Why do we tolerate the existence of the US state anymore? What's the point of any of this? I _hate_ the feeling of the smacking the back of my head. And they did it, against a plywood wall, by gripping a towel wrapped around his neck and slamming him into it, for two hours at a time, just to 'train' people. Everyone involved - perpetrators and victims - needs therapy and rehabilitation.…

> do we tolerate the existence of the US state anymore This is a ridiculous thing to say. I mean, what are you proposing? The whole world sanction the US?

I am proposing that the US state no longer exist.

The use cases of a single government having domain over such a large land mass, when 50 smaller states are already defined and functioning, are dwindling amidst the information age.

The crimes described in this article are utterly intolerable. Nobody wants this.

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