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Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

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Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#71

Post by lostcolony »

yumraj wrote: post #61
lordnacho wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with theocracy? Really? How about that you can't change it very easily once you have it? Or that it's based on authority, mostly of a small set of people? Or that religious issues have caused the slaughter of millions of people? Are you really abandoning liberal democracy because you happen to have found a religion you like?

> Are you really abandoning liberal democracy because you happen to have found a religion you like? I've not found a religion I like :) I'd said what's wrong with theocracy if that is what the people want, for example vote for. So, in effect it's a democratically chosen theocracy. Is that not democracy after all? In other words, if Tibet were to become independent and the people chose Dalai Lama to be the head of the…

Depends.

Is there some sort of founding document that enshrines the right to vote and replace leaders with a regular cadence, regardless of the desires of that leader? If so, then regardless of who they vote for, it's a democracy.

If instead a person is appointed to lead, who will use their religion to decide state matters, and there is no way to remove them except for them to choose to replace themselves, then it's a theocracy.

"Theocratic democracies" are unstable and don't last. There is no way for them to last. Either it allows those who are not of the same faith as the leaders to influence policy and have their voices heard and becomes a democracy, or it doesn't, in which case it is a theocracy, and a form of autocracy or oligarchy (just, one that claims divine authority instead of purely material authority).

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#72

Post by soperj »

cyberpunk wrote: post #70
DeusExMachina wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tibet provides a lot of water to China and India

And what, china thinks tibet will somehow find a way to stop rivers running? Or the kind of people who move individual ants while building temples would poison such waters? I still don't get it. Maybe it's those little blue flowers from Batman Begins they're after? >_<

If they don't take it, who will?

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#73

Post by throwaway_1928 »

cyberpunk wrote: post #70
DeusExMachina wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tibet provides a lot of water to China and India

And what, china thinks tibet will somehow find a way to stop rivers running? Or the kind of people who move individual ants while building temples would poison such waters? I still don't get it. Maybe it's those little blue flowers from Batman Begins they're after? >_<

China is already planning the "world's riskiest mega dam" in Tibet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEYuRFJ12iw.

It plans to use water supply as a weapon against India.

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#74

Post by stjohnswarts »

cuteboy19 wrote: post #66
stjohnswarts wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really though? Does this generation get to decide that all generations following it should live under a theocratic dictatorship? I'm not sure that's a whole lot better than Chinese control. Anyone who thinks the old Tibetan monarchy/aristocrat system was a good form of government should really read up on it and not just assume it was paradise for the Tibetan people. They still had serfs and slaves.

There are many kinds of "theocracy". The islamic republic of Pakistan is significantly better than Saudi Arabia. Or would your rather have them both as "rightful Chinese territory"?

Religious based government is bad all the way around. It leads to persecution of other religions and even sects of the same religion (Sunni vs Shia). It's a bad thing to have at the core of your government. This used to be a 1st principal in the USA but the lines are becoming blurred by alt-right ideology that is seeping into and starting to control the republican party. I really hope it has peaked and is on the down swing because there are finally some GOP people pushing back against a Trumpist coup in 2024.

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#75

Post by emptysongglass »

justinpowers wrote: post #26
suifbwish wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have the ability to turn off their pain entirely so it’s less of a miracle than if they were experiencing it.

They don’t “turn off” pain. Likely, they either objectify it (i.e. dispassionately observe the experience of pain) or ignore it (i.e. focus on a separate sensation) or dilute it (i.e. focus on “nothing” or alternatively, the all-encompassing sensation of “being”, the “now”, so that the experience of the pain is not the sole focus of their attention).

If the sense door of anatta [1] I walked through almost a decade ago now is any indication it's the former. The pain is still pain and as vivid but because not-you there's no clinging therefore no suffering.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anattā

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#76

Post by rigden33 »

yumraj wrote: post #52
rigden33 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well good for you cause the Tibetan Government in Exile and the Dalai Lama do not want independence. https://tibet.net/important-issues/the-middle-way-policy/

Of course they do want the independence, why would they not. It's just that after decades of occupation and China's economic rise, they feel that that is an impossible goal, at least until China implodes like the USSR did - which may or may not ever happen. So, they are asking for the next best option as a compromise - even the proposal is called middle-way for it is a compromise.

There are benefits to being associated with a global superpower in regards to quality of life improvements. Obviously they are not worth the cultural and human costs that Tibet is currently experiencing, but if we can get true autonomy, I don't see why you wouldn't want both. I say that as a Tibetan in exile.

There are some Tibetans that don't think true autonomy is possible with the CCP and thus still want independence though.

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#77

Post by lordnacho »

yumraj wrote: post #61
lordnacho wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with theocracy? Really? How about that you can't change it very easily once you have it? Or that it's based on authority, mostly of a small set of people? Or that religious issues have caused the slaughter of millions of people? Are you really abandoning liberal democracy because you happen to have found a religion you like?

> Are you really abandoning liberal democracy because you happen to have found a religion you like? I've not found a religion I like :) I'd said what's wrong with theocracy if that is what the people want, for example vote for. So, in effect it's a democratically chosen theocracy. Is that not democracy after all? In other words, if Tibet were to become independent and the people chose Dalai Lama to be the head of the…

Was Nazi Germany democratic because Hitler was elected? I doubt it. Once you preclude being able to remove the leader, which seems to be the case de facto or de jure (I don't know) you stop being a democracy.

Russia is another one of those countries that had some kind of election in the past but going forward you can't really see them being fair elections.

Of course people are free to elect eg the Christian democrats as often as they like, so long as they can choose otherwise. Japan and Mexico IIRC had people electing the same party for decades.

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#78

Post by technobabbler »

skilled wrote: post #53

I lived in Dharamshala (home to the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan government-in-exile) for 3 months a few years ago. My partner at the time went back to the US to visit family, and I didn't want to leave Asia so I went there since I had some interest in Buddhism at the time, too. In random book stores, I met actual monks who had served time (in China) as political prisoners. One of which had also written a book about it…

So... what did they think was the future for Tibet?

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#79

Post by emptysongglass »

treeman79 wrote: post #49
bena wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are experiencing it. Just because you aren't letting the pain dictate your actions, it doesn't mean you aren't experiencing it. It's about not letting your reflexes override your control.

It’s absolutely shocking how much pain you can be in before losing control if your willpower is strong enough.

There's no control to lose. There's no one suffering. The willpower to arrive at the experience is shocking but there's no sustaining of will once arrived at.

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#80

Post by throwaway_1928 »

atdrummond wrote: post #48
Santosh83 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tibet has never been under the control of India as far as I know. It was an ethnically independent region in the past and now comes under the govt of China. So major Himalayan rivers originating in Tibet is a big gain for China and a strategic problem for India, considering China has already built several huge upstream damns across these rivers which irrigate much of N India.

I suppose one could claim that at the time of the Convention of Lhasa, Tibet and much of India swore suzerainty to the same nation of Great Britain. There's also the concept of Arkhand Bharat ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhand_Bharat ) which is the notion of a unified Indian subcontinent.

One may also observe that India is primarily Hindu, while Tibet is primarily Buddhist, which is an offshoot of Hinduism. Present day China is communist atheist, which has a lot less in common with Buddhism than Hinduism does.
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