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My transition from Windows to Linux in an anti-customer age

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Re: My transition from Windows to Linux in an anti-customer age

#161

Post by V_Terranova_Jr »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #146
V_Terranova_Jr wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not merely culture wars, they're also value wars. Both Windows and MacOS are headed toward continuous behind-your-back communication with their respective motherships. In the case of Windows, they have the audacity to shamelessly advertise on your personal computer.

Correct. Many Linux users want Linux to "win" because they think they know what's best for people, and think that people should not be allowed to give over their personal information and privacy (which everyone presupposes Micro$oft takes from you) in exchange for working software. It leads to rhetoric and propaganda that's detached from reality, but it's for a good cause (getting people to switch to Linux).

Well, that's an interesting strawman...

If you want to willingly give over your personal information and privacy, which in fact Microsoft does take from you (no need to speak of supposition), that's certainly your decision to make and it's not my place to tell you if that's what's best for you or not. I also think you are imputing motive to Linux advocates that's not real - I don't think any of us are trying to tell you shouldn't be allowed to do what you want with your personal info. We are saying that if you use those systems, the only way you get a choice in the matter is if you go to significant lengths that defy how the vendor tries to force you their system. You are free to embrace those terms as much you like.

The "in exchange for working software" is also a needless swipe. Maybe there's some contingent of Linux users that use it just because they love tinkering, but most Linux users do real work with our systems. Personally, I'm more interested in the work I do with my system than I am with working on my system.

Re: My transition from Windows to Linux in an anti-customer age

#162

Post by kkfx »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #140
kkfx wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I'm using NixOS, sometimes a rebuild is broken, but that's not an issue since I can keep using the old ones in a snap... I'm not using Windows, my last one was XP in it's early days, but anytime for a reason or another I'm on it on someone else desktop the experience is so frustrating that I do not know how it's users can keep using it...

NixOS is complicated to use, it's nice to say "everyone should learn nixos" but that's not realistic. It's easier to use Windows.

It's debatable: it's easier a system that when it decide to upgrade can regularly lock you out in an "waiting" state for an unknown time until it hopefully finished without error then a system that you can re-deploy just with few lines of already written code?

It's easier a system that degrade while you use it, deriving to unknown states quickly or one you can rebuild and you normally do that upon any upgrade?

IMVHO Nix language is horrific, yes, that's a big issue and I dream Guix for that witch unfortunately it's not mature enough for my needs, but what NixOS offer:

- custom image to deploy just a simple .nix + oneliner away

- reproducibility

makes it far easier than any other system we have these days. Consider that the fact most people decide to make acrobatics on a blade simply ignoring the fact their system once installed, typically in a manual way, derive and degrade, keeping manually managing it fixing issues as they appear without even a real "backup plan" (at maximum having backups of personal data, witch are useless without the working OS) does means "easy" as "hey, it's easy not thinking, living day-to-day no matter what", yes it might be easy, until shit happen, when (not if) happen... Such easiness demand a potentially very big and up-front unknown price.

Thanks to NixOS I've upgraded many time my home infra, smoothly, I have everything up to date and everything can survive hw changes, crashes etc without much manual work in a reproducible manner. Oh, and that without wasting a gazillion of resources for things like ks and their obscenely long YAML-based setups, containers that are loooooong to rebuild to a point many simply do it once in a while etc.

Windows might sound simple for some because of ignorance: they already know it and only it, they get it pre-installed, when something happen they call for third party support etc, but that's not easiness that's habit+offloading problems to others. An easy recipe for disasters and hi opex + regular capex with much randomness.

In "complete" (desktop) terms classic systems were meant to last a decade of comfortable usage*, they were products with a significant value, mastered by the user/buyer of them; now systems last mostly only few years just to sell new and even more crappy hw, stating "hey, do not worry your data are secured on our servers, just pay us what we told you to pay, at our condition since you depend on us for anything".

Re: My transition from Windows to Linux in an anti-customer age

#163

Post by moltke »

Gareth321 wrote: post #112
diffeomorphism wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is servarr in the windows store? If not, it might as well not exist. Just because users have been trained to download .exe's from random, unvetted websites that does not make it any less insane. See android, see iOS (and by now also windows) who all agree how insane that is.

You call easy installation of applications insane. I call convoluted and technically difficult installation insane. I represent the vast majority of PC users, and I don't think you'll ever convince us that a 10 step CLI process to install an application is a good thing.

Most non-packaged apps are just `./configure && make install` sometimes `cmake . && make install` It's hardly one step much less 10. If you know so little about some random software you found that you can't compile it I'm not sure installing it is a good idea.

Re: My transition from Windows to Linux in an anti-customer age

#164

Post by phendrenad2 »

foxes wrote: post #160
phendrenad2 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find it totally incomprehensible Happy to help > Installing software in Windows is insane, relies on you to blindly trust an exe, non reproducible, and with no way to automate anything These three points are wrong, but I understand your confusion. You don't blindly trust an exe, you download it via https from the official website. The installs are "reproducible" to a point that 99% of users care about. You can au…

>The installs are "reproducible" to a point that 99% of users care about I would hardly call click an pray, and then having to redo this every time you want to set up a fresh install reproducible or deterministic. My standard for that is using Nix. >if the manufacturer doesn't keep on top of their driver code, it'll fall into disrepair Imagine actually having to care about the products you release. >Most people do no…

> I would hardly call click an pray, and then having to redo this every time you want to set up a fresh install reproducible or deterministic. My standard for that is using Nix.

Your standard is overengineered and a waste of time. No one needs that. IT is not paid a million dollars per year, we can spare a few man-hours.

> Imagine actually having to care about the products you release.

Actually, imagine NOT having to care because Windows exists and will allow you to ship one driver and it'll work forever. Wouldn't that be nice? Think of the cost savings. Think of the driver stability. Stop imagining, it's reality.

> I think any sane person should consider advertisements in their file explorer harmful.

Well you thought wrong, most people don't care or are very mildly annoyed/bemused. If you only read HN and TheRegister, you might come away thinking that everyone is suffering life-altering psychological trauma from that Candy Crush ad, but it's simply not a major issue.

Re: My transition from Windows to Linux in an anti-customer age

#165

Post by phendrenad2 »

V_Terranova_Jr wrote: post #161
phendrenad2 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. Many Linux users want Linux to "win" because they think they know what's best for people, and think that people should not be allowed to give over their personal information and privacy (which everyone presupposes Micro$oft takes from you) in exchange for working software. It leads to rhetoric and propaganda that's detached from reality, but it's for a good cause (getting people to switch to Linux).

Well, that's an interesting strawman... If you want to willingly give over your personal information and privacy, which in fact Microsoft does take from you (no need to speak of supposition), that's certainly your decision to make and it's not my place to tell you if that's what's best for you or not. I also think you are imputing motive to Linux advocates that's not real - I don't think any of us are trying to tell…

> you are imputing motive to Linux advocates that's not real

I didn't say "Linux advocates" I said "MANY Linux advocates". Linux users can be broadly bisected along various criteria and one of them is how much they care about "saving users from themselves" a.k.a. "knowing what's best for you". I include in that group people who will say that using Windows is fine, but will needle and jab at anyone they see using non-free software, as though it's their civic duty to goad people into submission.

Re: My transition from Windows to Linux in an anti-customer age

#166

Post by michaelcampbell »

Gareth321 wrote: post #116
michaelcampbell wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In Linux I have to follow a reasonably complicated and time consuming installation process, You don't /have/ to, you choose to. Docker provides a way easier path for all the *arr's. Not to mention removal is equally easy - with windows can you be SURE all the registry stuff is gone?

Docker still requires the CLI. Well, unless I install Portainer. Which also requires the CLI.

> Docker still requires the CLI.

Right, and? Not seeing how that is 'reasonably complicated'.

Re: My transition from Windows to Linux in an anti-customer age

#167

Post by trinsic2 »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #143
michaelcampbell wrote: post #14

> In 2015 when Windows 10 rebooted my machine to automatically install an update, closing down an unsaved document I was in the middle of working on, Do I have some magic aura that causes Microsoft to give me at least a 12 hour warning about updates? Because I honestly can't remember a time this sort of thing (instant update, no warning) has ever happened to me with Windows. I love Linux and do as much as I can for m…

> In 2015 when Windows 10 rebooted my machine to automatically install an update, closing down an unsaved document I was in the middle of working on, I'll never understand why Linux users have this inescapable urge to leave unsaves changes in their apps and go on a two-week vacation. You have to save your files, people. It's computer 101.

I walked away from my workstation and was gone for about 20mins. I understand your point, Its important to save, and I am always saving my documents, but sometimes you can forget to save. An unexpected restart or crash I can understand, but to force reboot a system for a update is unacceptable, and even being forced to update later is the same issue. Its my machine, Ill updated it when I'm ready, or not at all.

Re: My transition from Windows to Linux in an anti-customer age

#168

Post by phendrenad2 »

trinsic2 wrote: post #167
phendrenad2 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In 2015 when Windows 10 rebooted my machine to automatically install an update, closing down an unsaved document I was in the middle of working on, I'll never understand why Linux users have this inescapable urge to leave unsaves changes in their apps and go on a two-week vacation. You have to save your files, people. It's computer 101.

I walked away from my workstation and was gone for about 20mins. I understand your point, Its important to save, and I am always saving my documents, but sometimes you can forget to save. An unexpected restart or crash I can understand, but to force reboot a system for a update is unacceptable, and even being forced to update later is the same issue. Its my machine, Ill updated it when I'm ready, or not at all.

You were likely nagged for weeks by the system to update OR you dual-boot Linux and you switched over to Windows for a quick document edit. And then, when the popup showed up, and gave you the choice to dismiss it, you didn't pay attention (who pays attention to popups?) and clicked the "reboot now" button. It happens. But, now that you know what to avoid, you won't run into the issue again. Assuming you ever use Windows again, that is.

Re: My transition from Windows to Linux in an anti-customer age

#169

Post by qot »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #150
qot wrote: post #62

Linux isn't even close for normal people's desktop use. Just recently I tried and failed to simply set up a screensaver that turns my screen black (not off!) to save my display from burn-in. Eventually I just gave up. You can't do this with stock GNOME. I also tried xscreensaver (but the Debian-specific instructions in the man page are out of date) and xfce4-screensaver, both didn't work. I've been using Debian GNU/L…

To be fair, what you're looking for (black but not off) is probably not something many people would want or care about. But it does demonstrate how (A) inflexible and (B) feature-poor most Linux distros are

I'm really just looking to display a screensaver which _is_ something people want and care about.

All screensaver software that I've seen supports displaying an image / slide show which I will simply set to a black image. Another common feature is just displaying black.

Note: in Windows both of these are quite easy.

Re: My transition from Windows to Linux in an anti-customer age

#170

Post by qot »

hsbauauvhabzb wrote: post #157
qot wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That will still black the display when I'm watching youtube.

https://github.com/caffeine-ng/caffeine-ng Edit: fyi this wasn’t part of your initial complaint. I don’t use caffeine because I want my screen to predictably lock

"normal people's desktop use"
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