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Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

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Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#141

Post by scotty79 »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #112
_bbny wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it helps get rid of Putin and its something we are able to do. Getting rid of Putin is our objective right now. Is it technically ethical and nice? Maybe not, that can be debated. But I don't see why we should care. Russia's also seizing foreign property as well as invading another country, if you do want to have that ethical argument. This is how the world works, I don't think we should get bogged down in wh…

So wait... if we europeans wanted to get rid of eg. clinton for bombing in yugoslavia, and then bush of the middle eastern crap (well, technically both bushes), we can just take away property of random rich americans?

Not random. All. And I fully expect the world to do it if USA ever does invade Mexico or Canda with tanks and starts shelling civilians just because they want to annex them.

American oligarchs have total influence over American government. If they allow such thing to happen they are materially responsible for the damage.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#142

Post by nradov »

mandmandam wrote: post #126
dotancohen wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then just look at Elon Musk's and Bill Gates' projects. One is weaning us off hydrocarbons, the other is curing disease.

Quoted post unavailable.

If you're referring to the Starlink satellite constellation, Kessler syndrome isn't a real concern. Those satellites are in low orbits.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#143

Post by mandmandam »

nradov wrote: post #142
mandmandam wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

If you're referring to the Starlink satellite constellation, Kessler syndrome isn't a real concern. Those satellites are in low orbits.

NASA and MIT beg to differ.

And the light pollution on its own is a concern - why the everloving fuck should Musk of all people get to block humanity's starlight for his own private profit.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#144

Post by scrollaway »

Fordec wrote: post #136
scrollaway wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not. Do you think Biden has been sitting upon his throne for the past 22 years, giving orders to Thiel and Bezos so they can act on his behalf and in return he can give them a little more wealth/power? The people you quoted have a lot of power and influence. That doesn't make them state actors. The difference is extreme. If you genuinely don't understand that difference, I invite you to read "The Dictator's H…

Thanks, but I have a copy of the book on hand already. In the book de Mesquita refers to regardless of whether the system is Authoritarian or Democratic, rulers have to please their respective circle of power brokers. The only difference is the number they have to placate. And the US is not the prototypical example of the most democratic and grassroots political system out there by a long shot. To say I believe Biden…

I apologize for the strawman, then. And yes, it's not like there aren't parallels, but you cannot compare the power and influence of a Russian oligarch, who tends to serve as both a proxy/puppet to Putin and a useful way to stash riches, to, say, Musk or Bezos who tend to very much follow their own goals.

American billionaires have too much power, for sure, but that's a statement on the power of money and the ability for people to amass too much of it in one place in the USA. Russian oligarchs have this power because Putin shares it with them.

Since you've read the book (and I'm guessing agree with it, as I do), we're on the same page about the spectrum of democracy vs authoritarianism. But nowhere can you compare the actual individuals. Individual Russian oligarchs are the equivalent of extremely large corpora of people, servants and businesses; not of individual CEOs.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#145

Post by ajsnigrutin »

scrollaway wrote: post #137
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now do usa! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Uni... But when america does it, it's a "war for peace!" - https://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/1995/11... Look, we all agree war is bad... I live in the balkans, and I had american planes flying above my roof, bombing a country 300km away not that long ago... not to forget all of our "local" wars before that. But saying that america…

The US is not currently invading Ukraine. "Now do USA!" is whataboutism. It's what Putin is using as his justification to invade Ukraine: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/24/world/europe/putin-ukrain... Please. Stop. Amplifying. Putin's. Message.

But it's occupying syria. It's bombing somalia. And Yemen. They just pulled out of afghanistan after many years there, and they even fucked that up.

Why cry about ukraine and not about syria?

Why are you so keen on protecting the americans, when they're just as bad as putin? If america invaded ukraine, this would be just another "war for peace", like every other american war was.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#146

Post by scotty79 »

Wronnay wrote: post #114

Where was all this reaction in 2008 when Russia invaded Georgia?! Russia is TO THIS FUCKING DAY in Georgia and nobody cares about it. Georgia and Ukraine are just 1,167 km = 725 miles away but the West only plays world super police when something near to the EU border happens or if the country has a lot of Oil. I am really sick of the politics of both sides. If the US would have done something in 2008, than Russia wo…

I'm terribly sorry that it took Georgia and Chechnya for the west to finally get of their asses. I guess third time's the charm.

Poland understood what was happening from the first invasion. But western governments have their perception impaired by distance or something. Maybe yoi can't hear bombs that well from under all of that Russian oil.

Only the vision of Russian tanks on NATO border and two million of refugees entering EU got through to them.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#147

Post by scrollaway »

hutzlibu wrote: post #135
scrollaway wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you treat all the russian people as enemies Let's be extremely clear: Russian people are not the enemy. Very few people here in Europe think this, and those who do are mostly the xenophobic assholes who enjoy thinking anyone who isn't them is the enemy anyway. Oligarchs are Putin's keys to power. Sanctioning them is a way to hurt Putin's power and influence, which has a chance to bring the war to an end. Not san…

"Not sanctioning them because "oh there's a chance maybe one of them actually doesn't like the guy" is an idiotic move. " Given recent russian history of fights between Putin and various oligarchs - I rather think it would be a idiotic move to target them all without due process - because the chances are actually quite high, that many of them oppose Putin.

We're not imprisoning them, we're freezing their riches. This gets more of them to oppose Putin. And several are now having to come out publicly speaking against him.

This is how we're helping a coup d'état happen. It's a good and solid strategy. A lot is riding on this.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#148

Post by scrollaway »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #145
scrollaway wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is not currently invading Ukraine. "Now do USA!" is whataboutism. It's what Putin is using as his justification to invade Ukraine: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/24/world/europe/putin-ukrain... Please. Stop. Amplifying. Putin's. Message.

But it's occupying syria. It's bombing somalia. And Yemen. They just pulled out of afghanistan after many years there, and they even fucked that up. Why cry about ukraine and not about syria? Why are you so keen on protecting the americans, when they're just as bad as putin? If america invaded ukraine, this would be just another "war for peace", like every other american war was.

Don't make accusations you can't back up. I never defended america's atrocities, repeatedly called them out, volunteered and donated time and money for Syria's refugee crisis as much as I could.

I'm more personally involved in the Ukraine war because this is my government, and my extended family is targeted. But I never fucking ignored Syria, and I'm not ignoring it now. I'm saying that all you're doing here is helping Russia, which helps neither Ukraine nor Syria. So stop it.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#149

Post by bjarneh »

throwaway290 wrote: post #68
bjarneh wrote: post #11

I always thought: Wow they seized his yacht; I never thought that these people had a bunch of these billion dollar things floating around... So they seized one of his many, many boats. I have to agree with everybody else in this thread, not a big fan of blaming the people of Russia for what their dictator does; even if they are in his so called "inner circle". Perhaps these people can pressure Putin to change his min…

US and Russia unites in cheering for Russian oligarchs being robbed (ordinary Russians, especially the war-supporting pseudo proletariat, never really valued wealth or private property and would happily watch oligarchs parting with their toys; and the US citizens think something productive is being done). The rich themselves would suffer next to no drop in their quality of life. They probably got rich by exploiting R…

> but all things considered not the worst thing that's happening.

I agree, not a big thing, and I certainly think people with that kind of wealth know more about hiding money than the rest of us will ever know, and this war will probably not affect their wealth too much. They probably all knew in advance and shorted some Russian stock on the London stock exchange - making a killing. I do find it a bit strange that we "cheer on" this seizure of property based on nationality though; but most probably think it's ok since they are so obscenely rich.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#150

Post by ajsnigrutin »

scotty79 wrote: post #141
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So wait... if we europeans wanted to get rid of eg. clinton for bombing in yugoslavia, and then bush of the middle eastern crap (well, technically both bushes), we can just take away property of random rich americans?

Not random. All. And I fully expect the world to do it if USA ever does invade Mexico or Canda with tanks and starts shelling civilians just because they want to annex them. American oligarchs have total influence over American government. If they allow such thing to happen they are materially responsible for the damage.

> Not random. All. And I fully expect the world to do it if USA ever does invade Mexico or Canda with tanks and starts shelling civilians just because they want to annex them.

Why mexico or canada? Why not for iraq? Afghanistan? Syria? Libya? Yemen? Jugoslavia? Why only for annexation and not for "just bombing" or even occupation, with yes, tanks?

Shelling civillians?

Like bombing a civillian train? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grdelica_train_bombing

A bus? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lu%C5%BEane_bus_bombing

How about escaping refugees? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Albanian_refug...

Or a foreign embassy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_bombing_of_the_C...

Civillian tv station? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_the_Radio_Tele...

How about directly custer bombing a city? Twice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni%C5%A1_cluster_bombing

A hospital? https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/balkans...

So you agree, that if US/NATO doesn't immediately pull out from eg. syria, that switzerland can take away googles property in Zurich?

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