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Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

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Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#121

Post by raverbashing »

cyberpunk wrote: post #90
raverbashing wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just OK to seize private property of individuals Yes, it's a war. Deal with it If they have a problem they can take it up with their boss. > to this is getting pretty fucking scary I believe there are kids in Ukraine who are legitimately scared. Getting your megayacht confiscated is just a first world problem.

These things trickle down. It leads to stuff like this: German clinic refuses to treat Russian Patients [0] Canada bans Russian pianist from performing [1] 0: https://www.rtl.de/cms/muenchen-iatros-privatklinik-will-kei... 1: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/05/arts/music/russian-artist... Do you think that is OK? Because of a lunatic in their home country? The same things were said about the Jews in the 1920's. We sh…

Hostility against Russians have nothing to do with sanction and everything to do with what the Russian government is doing. You might pretend otherwise but that's not how it works

The clinic has reversed their position by the way

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#122

Post by scotty79 »

jeffreygoesto wrote: post #108
baq wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they are not individuals. they are the Russian state. i agree it's a fine line, but then, these people are undermining western democracies and at the same time seek safety in them. they assumed their assets would be safe and tried to max their payouts.

How's that different from the US?

It's no different. And US oligarchs should fully expect to have their assets seized if they ever allow US government to perpetrate such insanity.

US oligarches are the people that decide what the government is allowed to do. They can stop any decision that they don't like. If they don't stop it, they are responsible for it. And should pay for it if the rest of the world decides it's prudent.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#123

Post by [deleted] »

jamespo wrote: post #5
cyberpunk wrote: post #2

So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dia…

"links to their government" is doing a lot of work there

[deleted]

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#124

Post by [deleted] »

Wronnay wrote: post #114

Where was all this reaction in 2008 when Russia invaded Georgia?! Russia is TO THIS FUCKING DAY in Georgia and nobody cares about it. Georgia and Ukraine are just 1,167 km = 725 miles away but the West only plays world super police when something near to the EU border happens or if the country has a lot of Oil. I am really sick of the politics of both sides. If the US would have done something in 2008, than Russia wo…

[deleted]

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#125

Post by hutzlibu »

andonisus wrote: post #70
dotancohen wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong. If a nation does something that other nations do, it is completely unjustified to pretend that their actions are wrong. The international community normalizes actions through actions. You might not like the fact that some particular action is normalized but you cannot suddenly villianize a nation for doing the same that other ("our allies") nations do regularly.

Why not? They are enemies, not friends. We should vilify our enemies and celebrate our allies. This is the nature of the world. Sometimes you must draw a line in the sand and pick a side. It is not possible to straddle the middle and try to apply the same sets of rules to every actor; each circumstance is different and should be treated with the nuance it requires.

The thing is, if you treat all the russian people as enemies, than they will in fact all become your enemies. If some oligarchs were (secretly) opposing Putin before - then this is the way to bind them to Putin.

"It is not possible to straddle the middle and try to apply the same sets of rules to every actor"

And this would be, how justice is supposed to work. Apply the same rules to every actor. Otherwise it is not justice and you loose every credibility, when you claim to wage wars in the name of "justice". It becomes just a meaningless word and you no different from the bad guys.

"and celebrate our allies"

So hooray to the great rulers of Saudi Arabia and co. May they live long and prosper, bomb the shit out of their enemies in Yemen(370000+ deaths so far) and stone their own women to death, if they dare to speak up and disobey.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#126

Post by mandmandam »

dotancohen wrote: post #50
this_was_posted wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is forcing them to retire, I for one would be interested to see what these productive people would come up with when they shift their goal from making a great profit to making a great social impact.

Then just look at Elon Musk's and Bill Gates' projects. One is weaning us off hydrocarbons, the other is curing disease.

No post body was provided.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#127

Post by scrollaway »

wilde wrote: post #66

So much whattaboutism in this thread. We are at war. Seizing property of the other belligerents is a very normal thing to do in a war. Russia is currently seizing assets from American companies who leave the country. Russia is currently bombing Ukrainian hospitals. This is a somewhat tame escalation in that light.

A lot of whataboutism. Many people downvoting the ones reminding those who are sitting safe in their unthreatened homes talking about "both sides" and "due process" that this isn't a fair and honorable fight, this is a dictator expanding into Europe by killing civilians and using his wealth and power to bully politicians and other states.

If there are digital archives left over after all this, these are the conversations people in the future will be reading to understand why the fuck Russia was able to get so much implicit support. Ever wonder "how germans let Hitler get away with it"? Future generations will look back at these to understand how Putin got away with so much.

Say hi, you're on a book. What year is this?

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#128

Post by scotty79 »

88840-8855 wrote: post #12
cyberpunk wrote: post #2

So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dia…

What do you expect? The Russians are a pretty comfy enemy. From Call of Duty over Mission Impossible, we are familiar to the evil Russian, hence, those reactions are so satisfying to too many people, unfortunately. I have Ukranian/Russian roots. My girl, born in Germany, was just pushed by classmates and called nasty words just last week in school. This reminds me of the racism against Asian people when Covid appeare…

I'm very sorry to hear that. Kids are very eager to single out some other kids for the dumbest of reasons and attack them. Any difference might be a pretense for attack under the right conditions. I'm afraid that's how our species works naturally and there's a huge role of upbringing and education to silence those innate impulses in young people.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#129

Post by Canotdohng »

jasode wrote: post #74
cyberpunk wrote: post #2

So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dia…

>So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Just in case there's misunderstanding about what "seize" means... Are governments actually taking ownership possession (nationalizing) of Russian yachts or are they removing the assets from the owner's control? In other words, does "seize" mean: (1) civil forfeiture like USA police confiscating cash without due process…

> (2) freezing an asset like impounding/towing a car away and the owner can eventually get the car back later (e.g. after Russia stops the war) ?

At least in Europe AFAIK. The rationale is to prevent, at least temporarily, oligarchs from benefiting from their assets. And the possibility of getting them back could give these influencial oligarchs an incentive to push for a resolution of the war that might be less catastrophic than where it is headed now.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#130

Post by nradov »

buro9 wrote: post #73
stuaxo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a fantastic idea, billionaires are a symptom of our unequal society. We could have a ceiling of say 50 million quid and you get to say you won capitalism, and everyone throws you a bug party.

Taxes should be doing this. Progressive taxation should be uncapped, when you pass some threshold of "this is more than you need in the lifetimes of you, your partner, your next-of-kin to all live a life of unparalleled luxury" then it should escalate up to 99%, and if you pass some really obscene threshold equivalent to a small country's GDP then let it go to 100%. Wealth taxation should be effective. No individual…

In the US, low earners already pay no income tax. In 2020, 61% of Americans paid no federal income tax.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/18/61percent-of-americans-paid-...

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