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Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

picower.mit.edu

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Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#111

Post by tarsinge »

acrefoot wrote: post #91

The headline says working memory, not long-term episodic memory, but the comments (and headline) here don't seem to distinguish between the two. We can disrupt short term memories in a variety of ways. When memories consolidate, they move to different structures. We can hold a lot more information in long-term memories than in working memory. Because I hear this hypothesis come up from time to time--it's unlikely con…

Is that really incompatible with information being held in e-fields? It's just that these fields are generated by group of neurons, which can indeed be "stoped and started back"?

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#112

Post by ethanbond »

tarsinge wrote: post #111
acrefoot wrote: post #91

The headline says working memory, not long-term episodic memory, but the comments (and headline) here don't seem to distinguish between the two. We can disrupt short term memories in a variety of ways. When memories consolidate, they move to different structures. We can hold a lot more information in long-term memories than in working memory. Because I hear this hypothesis come up from time to time--it's unlikely con…

Is that really incompatible with information being held in e-fields? It's just that these fields are generated by group of neurons, which can indeed be "stoped and started back"?

In that case it’s unclear why you’d not refer to it as the information being encoded in the neurons. I don’t think anyone interprets that to mean the information is retrievable sans electrical field.

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#113

Post by politician »

hosh wrote: post #95
jotm wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it is certainly possible that it affects health. However, since we decided to live with such technology as a society, we'll have to deal with it. People living in cities (or anywhere really) don't complain much about the massive amount of exhaust from cars, which is definitely proven to be bad for everyone's health despite all attempts at reducing it. It's just there, we won't give up cars, so everyone just kin…

Well, we didn’t complain about 70 years of leaded gasoline exhaust either … but maybe our society had collectively lost the capability to understand the damage.

We’re ready to hyperventilate about spent nuclear fuel stored hundreds of miles away at the bottom of a vault under a desert, so I don’t think we’ve collectively lost the ability to be persuaded by charismatic people.

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#114

Post by noasaservice »

kelnos wrote: post #84
hosh wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a very well-articulated argument by an autistic woman that, the clinical definitions for autism are framed from the disruption and impact to neurotypical society, but does not adequately address what’s going on for the autistic person. For example, the author herself is diagnosed with high-functioning autism. Her social impact on others is miminal enough where it qualifies for “high functioning”, but having…

I think it'd be reasonable to say that if humans didn't have eyes (and didn't have any other sensory enhancements beyond what sighted humans have today), and then a new human was born with eyes, that new human would be strictly "better off" than the old humans without eyes. Certainly the new human wouldn't say the old humans were "disabled", but at the very least, the new human would not have trouble communicating wi…

I think the root of the word "disability" is where I have issues with.

Disability is a dis- (opposite of, or not) and an ability. If I cannot see, then vision is a disability. I wouldn't have it, but others would. Same if I was deaf, or had various types of mechanical physical problems.

Autism is different. Many types, depending on what's going on, isn't a dis-ability. Unlike me not having something that would allow me to perceive or do actions, this "disability" is instead of how other non-autistics treat us. I'm not lacking anything. Instead, I'm told I am defective because of the way neurotypicals treat us.

I use accurate language, and NT's assume that I'm talking in coded language... That's because NT's do just that. Or that I can hyperfocus. Most NT's cant. And worse yet, NT's make fun of us hyperfocusing. And being in IT, hyperfocusing is a powerful positive trait that puts me ahead of NTs.

Unlike other mechanical disabilities, this "disability" is primarily rooted in *others* treating us badly, over perceived badness.

As for me, I consider myself superior to that of most NT's. In fact, I feel sad for those humans who can't get the joy of deeply digging into an area of study, and then learning how other topics connect to it, and becoming an adept in a very short time. It might be an arrogant view, but I've seen NT's struggle with basic concepts time and again.

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#115

Post by vannevar »

acrefoot wrote: post #91

The headline says working memory, not long-term episodic memory, but the comments (and headline) here don't seem to distinguish between the two. We can disrupt short term memories in a variety of ways. When memories consolidate, they move to different structures. We can hold a lot more information in long-term memories than in working memory. Because I hear this hypothesis come up from time to time--it's unlikely con…

It's possible that the field is a good proxy for underlying coherence in a redundant neural subnet that may be harder to measure directly. The field itself may or may not play a causal role---that would depend on whether the field could induce or reinforce neural activity. Even if the electrical field plays a role in marshaling the necessary neural activity, the representation must come to exist in the neurons in some way, since they are what are connected to the muscles that carry out intention.

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#116

Post by jotm »

rixed wrote: post #106
jotm wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it is certainly possible that it affects health. However, since we decided to live with such technology as a society, we'll have to deal with it. People living in cities (or anywhere really) don't complain much about the massive amount of exhaust from cars, which is definitely proven to be bad for everyone's health despite all attempts at reducing it. It's just there, we won't give up cars, so everyone just kin…

It seemed to me we are getting rid of exhaust gases in big cities, via stricter regulations on engine emissions, exhaust gas recirculation, catalytic converters, stop and go systems, lower speed limits, car free areas, electrification, etc, with very visible results. So the car analogy seems a bad exemple to discourage progress.

As I said, it's not enough. As long as they exist, they're causing health problems. You just can't filter enough of the gases. But moving to full electric can solve that quite well (putting the dangerous emissions far away).

Batteries are getting safer, too.

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#117

Post by aaaaaaaaaaab »

docere wrote: post #88
alar44 wrote: post #41

I died and was brought back to life. Still have memories. Did I just debunk the paper?

You have a point. Medically induced coma such as with pentobarbital can “flatline” the brain, eliminating electrical fields. After weaning the pentobarbital patients have their memories intact.

If all electric fields were to disappear your brain would collapse into a point...

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#118

Post by owlbynight »

imcoconut wrote: post #62
owlbynight wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spoiler: They weren't

Why are you so confident? It seems a fair number of experts have well justified doubts based on studies of already deployed lower energy radiation. https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/we-have-no... > Citing this large body of research, more than 240 scientists who have published peer-reviewed research on the biologic and health effects of nonionizing electromagnetic fields (EMF) signed the International…

Because all of the dumb people I know think 5G is causing health issues and all of the smart people I know think it's not.

Perhaps realign your priorities to worry about something imminently catastrophic like climate change. And if it's theories you want to worry about, check this one out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clathrate_gun_hypothesis

If you're still worried about Wifi, then I don't know what to tell you.

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#119

Post by sleightofmind »

aeternum wrote: post #99
acrefoot wrote: post #91

The headline says working memory, not long-term episodic memory, but the comments (and headline) here don't seem to distinguish between the two. We can disrupt short term memories in a variety of ways. When memories consolidate, they move to different structures. We can hold a lot more information in long-term memories than in working memory. Because I hear this hypothesis come up from time to time--it's unlikely con…

If it were electric fields, wouldn't we also expect the extreme EM fields generated by MRI machines, or even strong permanent magnets held near someone's skull to have some effect on memory? A nearby lightning strike or overhead power line should also have some effect. It would be quite amazing if the body were able to neutralize/counter such strong external electric fields.

Good observation. I would not be surprised if the answer to your question is, Yes. An MRI does have some effect on currently active memories and thought. It seems to a non-scientist like me that it would be difficult to use the usual tools to measure this inside an MRI tube, so maybe a hard question to answer for even the experts in measuring such things.

Plenty of folks who do not consider themselves claustrophobic just completely fritz out inside an MRI tube. Could their usual ability to reason about and maintain composure be reduced by just such interference?

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#120

Post by lukeplato »

acrefoot wrote: post #91

The headline says working memory, not long-term episodic memory, but the comments (and headline) here don't seem to distinguish between the two. We can disrupt short term memories in a variety of ways. When memories consolidate, they move to different structures. We can hold a lot more information in long-term memories than in working memory. Because I hear this hypothesis come up from time to time--it's unlikely con…

The research suggests the EM fields and underlying neural networks work together, i.e fields might provide a top-down energy-based attention mechanism while the network structures implement bottom-up agglomerations of information. Blocking EM fields wouldn't destroy memory but might pause or disturb the learned activation flows of neurons.

""" The researchers hypothesize that the field even appears to be a means the brain can employ to sculpt information flow to ensure the desired result. By imposing that a particular field emerge, it directs the activity of the participating neurons.

Indeed, that’s one of the next questions the scientists are investigating: Could electric fields be a means of controlling neurons?

“We are now using this work to ask whether information flows from the macroscale level of the electric field down to the microscale level of individual neurons,” Pinotsis says. “To make the analogy with the orchestra, we are now using this work to ask whether a conductor’s style changes the way an individual member of an orchestra plays her instrument.” """

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