Earlier quoted context omitted.
Israel always had laws favoring jews over non-jews. It would seem shocking but its been like that since day 1. Even now with white blue-eyed christian Ukrainians flooding Israel, they are being left in the airport for days, and interrogated to see who had a Jewish great grandfather and who did not. If you did - thats a free ticket in. If not? Wait a few more days, we might take you in if you put up collateral cash (a…
There are other western countries with very strict immigration policies. I think this applies to Switzerland and to Japan, for example.
Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses
611–620 of 735 posts
Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses
#612Earlier quoted context omitted.
That a 0.37% (or more) slice of some population that feels it's been oppressed and impoverished might engage in /(freedom fighter|terrorist)/ activities doesn't seem surprising to me.
That would mean 100,000 terrorists in the scale of the USA
Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses
#613Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is there a better analogy to compare the situation to? Language is about communicating ideas efficiently. Apartheid is a good word for what is happening, and our response should be the same as it was in South Africa.
My understanding is that, once you're a citizen of Israel, you have the same rights as other Israeli citizens, regardless of race or religion. Under apartheid, rights were infringed based on race.
In South Africa you could be a citizen regardless of your race, but how you were treated depended on your race; citizens were not equal.
In Israel, they are trying to prevent people of a certain race from becoming citizens, but once you are a citizen, there are fewer 'official' racist policies even if a lot of the people you have to deal with are outwardly racist anyway. On paper, citizens are (largely) equal.
Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses
#614Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ah, those are nice examples, but... some 50% of private land in Israel is owned by Arab Israeli citizens, not by JNF, and they apply similar restriction on any Jewish family trying to settle in a predominantly Arab town or village. A similar restriction doesn't apply to predominantly Jewish towns, only to small community villages.
I'm curious if you have any references, because as you can imagine, it's hard to search for such things. I tried to make my statements and figures based on objectively verifiable information (the stated policy of JNF and its land holdings, naming the Admissions Committees Law). I think if you were to account for the broader discrimination in property sale/leasing, the amount of land where non-Jewish nationals are den…
>Currently, in Israel “proper” (within the Green Line), only 7 percent of the land is owned privately by individuals (3 percent Jews and 4 percent Arabs). According to the Israeli NGO Regavim, the rest is owned by the Jewish state (80 percent) and the Jewish National Fund (13 percent)
https://jewishjournal.com/commentary/opinion/marty_kaplan/12...
Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses
#615Earlier quoted context omitted.
Israel is surrounded by Arab Muslims who outnumber Jews 100:1 and are overtly hostile to Judaism, as prescribed by their religion. I ask honestly, is it really so wrong for a nation to implement laws to preserve its culture, particularly when it's people constitute a tiny fraction of the global population? Or is support of cultural preservation only virtuous when the alternative is labeled "gentrification"?
> and are overtly hostile to Judaism, as prescribed by their religion As a biracial Jew from Pakistan I can assure you this is false. The modern enmity between Jews and Muslims began around the time of Israel's creation [1]. As far as 'preserving culture', this sounds a little to close to the Fourteen Words for my comfort. You can celebrate and keep alive one's own culture without the exclusion and denial of rights t…
Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses
#616Earlier quoted context omitted.
> and are overtly hostile to Judaism, as prescribed by their religion As a biracial Jew from Pakistan I can assure you this is false. The modern enmity between Jews and Muslims began around the time of Israel's creation [1]. As far as 'preserving culture', this sounds a little to close to the Fourteen Words for my comfort. You can celebrate and keep alive one's own culture without the exclusion and denial of rights t…
>I think the idea of ethnostates run counter to the core values of most modern, liberal democracies. But not to the core values of middle eastern Arab countries, which is the point to limiting the possibility of a sizeable proportion of immigrants imposing their incompatible culture onto host nations. >As far as 'preserving culture', this sounds a little to close to the Fourteen Words for my comfort. There is no reas…
Source, dearly lacking. Though I'm uncertain how you would support this claim. I tried digging up some examples, but the best I found was a list of countries [0] supporting 'right to return' laws with accelerated naturalization if you are of the 'favored' ethnicity. I don't see any arab or middle eastern countries on this list. I sincerely would appreciate any supporting articles you have towards this claim.
I agree liberal values must be defended. I just don't believe illiberal methods such as those described in the OP are effective methods of doing so. I think the world is growing more concerned with things like LGBT and women's rights in large part because of the freedom of exchange of information, ideas, and experiences. These are accelerated by both the internet and multicultural cities and nations which aren't possible with ethnicity-based immigration laws.
You're right I should not have alluded to the Fourteen Words, I could have picked a better example. The similarities in attitude frighten me, however. Elevating the safety and prosperity of ethnic group A to the detriment of group B is not promoting or maintaining a liberal way of life, despite what we might want to call it.
> The enmity is baked into the Koran and therefore approximately as old as Islam.
I won't rehash my previous response to this idea, but leave a hopefully unbiased wiki link [1] on the subject with just one small anecdote. The holiday of purim is an entire commemoration of the 'elimination' of a certain peoples. Does this mean a certain enmity is baked into the Torah towards Amalekites? Do you think this history actually gives you a negative bias towards the present day descendants of Hamman?
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return#Countries_with...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Islam#The_Qura...
Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses
#617Earlier quoted context omitted.
> [Ukraine/Israel] is persecuting its [Russian/Arab] minorities by enacting discriminatory laws The analogy doesn’t hold here. Ukraine shouldn’t persecute it’s Russian minority. (Hell, it’s Russian-speaking cities are lobbing Molotov cocktails at the invaders.) And Palestine isn’t mounting an invasion of Israel, though if they had the capability, it’s uncertain they wouldn’t—the Arab nations tried twice.
Ukraine passed laws banning the Russian language, which was one of the excuses made by Russia to begin this conflict.
This is totally false.
Ukranian is Ukraine's official language. But Russian was allowed in "courts, schools and other government institutions in areas of Ukraine where the national minorities exceed 10% of the population" when Crimea was invaded [1]. That law was repealed, of course. But Russian was never banned.
Most recently, Ukranian was given primacy in "media, education and business." But again, not even talk of banning Russian in any meaningful sense.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine
Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses
#618Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is there a better analogy to compare the situation to? Language is about communicating ideas efficiently. Apartheid is a good word for what is happening, and our response should be the same as it was in South Africa.
My understanding is that, once you're a citizen of Israel, you have the same rights as other Israeli citizens, regardless of race or religion. Under apartheid, rights were infringed based on race.
This is a good point. Israel totally doesn't deny entry, immigration, work visa status, citizenship, and even recognition as Jewish to black Jews:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Jews_in_Israel#Absor...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Hebrew_Israelites_in_I...
Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses
#619Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses
#620Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm curious if you have any references, because as you can imagine, it's hard to search for such things. I tried to make my statements and figures based on objectively verifiable information (the stated policy of JNF and its land holdings, naming the Admissions Committees Law). I think if you were to account for the broader discrimination in property sale/leasing, the amount of land where non-Jewish nationals are den…
References, because of course nobody believes it. >Currently, in Israel “proper” (within the Green Line), only 7 percent of the land is owned privately by individuals (3 percent Jews and 4 percent Arabs). According to the Israeli NGO Regavim, the rest is owned by the Jewish state (80 percent) and the Jewish National Fund (13 percent) https://jewishjournal.com/commentary/opinion/marty_kaplan/12...
> [Arab Israeli citizens owning private land] apply similar restriction on any Jewish family trying to settle in a predominantly Arab town or village. A similar restriction doesn't apply to predominantly Jewish towns, only to small community villages.
I'm not sure, because you clearly make a distinction between towns and small community villages, so I could be wrong, but it sounds like even there you are describing the (probably rampant) petty discrimination by individuals on 4% of the land. My default is also to assume there are comparable levels of petty discrimination on the other 3% of private land, unless you have some reference to support your comments about restrictions only applying in the other direction.
To repeat another point though, I am highlighting the rigidly enforced discrimination on at least 13% of the land, and think this is far more significant than haphazard petty discrimination on either side of the 4% and 3% private land divide, where creating or buttressing homogenous communities is far harder without state support (though one side does have that). Never mind that, like I said I don't have time to research it now, but I think a substantial portion of that 80% of state land has similar restrictions in place against non-Jewish nationals.
As I said:
> Of course there will be petty discrimination, perhaps even rooted in each side's belief that each property transaction is really a territorial battle. The actions of consequence are those of the state and those backed by the state apparatus.
To make clear the reasons for this:
- they cover a far greater proportion of the land
- they are far more rigidly enforced
- their power to engineer demography is far greater, as the instruments at their disposal are far more powerful (punitive travel/work restrictions, evictions, municipal infrastructure support/denial, military support/harassment, etc.)