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Russia opens criminal investigation of Meta over death calls on Facebook

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Re: Russia opens criminal investigation of Meta over death calls on Facebook

#191

Post by colinmhayes »

HonestOp001 wrote: post #185
trhway wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Tech companies are making themselves active participants in conflicts involving powerful countries. sometimes there are situations when one can't be neutral. A genocidal war like the one Russia is waging in Ukraine is such a situation. >Sooner or later, one of those countries is going to reach out and strike back in the physical world. Like Saudis did. So, it is a personal choice of everybody - whether to live by Ru…

Genocidal war is not what is occurring. It is a land war where Putin wants to gain access to and control significant resources and a warm body of water in the southeast.

I would agree that this isn't genocide, but the russian forces are playing extremely loose with civilian casualties. It's clear that Putin is trying to destroy Ukrainian culture/independent spirit which could be considered a form of genocide I guess.

Re: Russia opens criminal investigation of Meta over death calls on Facebook

#192

Post by ModernMech »

HonestOp001 wrote: post #185
trhway wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Tech companies are making themselves active participants in conflicts involving powerful countries. sometimes there are situations when one can't be neutral. A genocidal war like the one Russia is waging in Ukraine is such a situation. >Sooner or later, one of those countries is going to reach out and strike back in the physical world. Like Saudis did. So, it is a personal choice of everybody - whether to live by Ru…

Genocidal war is not what is occurring. It is a land war where Putin wants to gain access to and control significant resources and a warm body of water in the southeast.

um... there's a huge subtext going on here that you are glossing over. Putin has said that the greatest tragedy of the 20th century was the fall of the Soviet union. He has intoned that he wishes to restore the former glory of the Soviet Union in Russia. He is now currently displaying on state run media, images of tanks flying the soviet flag as they invade Ukraine. He has called into question the very nature of the Ukrainian state as a legitimate entity. He has called into question the very nature the Ukrainian people as a legitimate ethnic group, claiming they are in fact Russians. He is now conducting a war which encroaches on their national identity by invading its borders, and he is engaged in specifically targeting civilians, including hospitals and fleeing refugees. He is also engaged in a vast information war against Ukrainians, and if he's successful in taking over Ukraine that information war will come to them as well. This isn't merely about gaining access to a port, this is about erasing a people, its history, and its identity.

I've gotta say, if this is not recognizable as genocidal war to you, can you please lay down a firm line that needs to be crossed before you apply that term? Because the way things are going if Putin doesn't cross it today, he will soon enough.

Because what do you think happens if Putin takes over Ukraine? When you look at the images of the bombed hospitals, what do you think happens next, after the brutal dictator takes over the country filled with people whom he claims are Nazis?

Re: Russia opens criminal investigation of Meta over death calls on Facebook

#193

Post by MisterBastahrd »

lazide wrote: post #167
runarberg wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Individual journalists indeed tried (and still do), however editors and upper management have always tried to steer their staff in the direction which mostly benefits their shareholders or their biggest advertisers. If journalists still persist and write stories exposing the wrong people, those journalists do loose their jobs and their stories do get canned or watered down (e.g. with equal presentation of “the other…

Eh, journalists are human and many have very strong political and ideological views that are quite apparent in their writing. Editors try to tie together the paper into a coherent voice and brand, which also needs to be able to ‘feed itself’ somehow. I wouldn’t put anyone on a high horse here.

Yeah, just look at the following:

1. I believe that I am a rational human being

2. My rational way of thinking has lead me to certain set of beliefs about the world and how it operates

3. I don't think about these beliefs all the time, because they make sense to me, but I reserve the right to change them should my perception change

4. It may take a while for my beliefs to change since these are conclusions I have made after thinking about topics rationally for a period of time. A sunk cost of sorts, if you will.

I think that most people would see that list and say hey, there's a person who is probably rational and introspective.

Now add the following:

0. I am a journalist

5. I report facts objectively but my decision making process on what is important to the reader may be affected by my human brain and my idea of the situation garnered from my experience with the subject matter and my human beliefs

This still isn't the dreaded "media bias," although it's clearly a bias. We have more accurate journalism right now than in any other part of human history. We just have more editorialising too.

What I'm specifically arguing against is that there was ever a time when there WASN'T bias in journalism. That's nonsense.

Re: Russia opens criminal investigation of Meta over death calls on Facebook

#194

Post by aerovistae »

monklu wrote: post #82
gambler wrote: post #40

If you need to change your platform's rules for literally every major event (elections, Covid, this war) there is something profoundly wrong both with your rules and your platform. There is tremendous value in having actual principles. So many people either forgotten it or never understood that to begin with.

On the contrary, I think this says less about FB, but more so reflects a hypocrisy in "western principles" that many are probably not self-aware of. Let's assume for a second, that FB do not relax their rules for this conflict. Then they would have to ban a whole sleuth of Ukrainian accounts, including many government accounts such as Ministry of Defense, and probably even Zelensky. You don't have to stretch your ima…

Reminds me of my favorite internet essay of all time, no longer available except on wayback machine[1]

> ...the US criminal justice system is overwhelmingly preoccupied with procedure and process, often at the expense of justice. This myopia is the product of a technocratic bureaucracy.

> The contemporary incarnation of the peculiar mindset of Anglo-American jurisprudence leads to the question, “Were the rights of all parties, as enumerated by the law, protected?”, eclipsing the much larger issue: “Is this outcome compatible with justice?”

While these comments are in reference to the legal system, I think they are equally applicable to the mindset pervading the oversight of today's tech world.

[1] http://web.archive.org/web/20210308014253/https://likewise.a...

Note - the author is an intermittent HN user, abalashov.

Re: Russia opens criminal investigation of Meta over death calls on Facebook

#195

Post by lxnn »

rajin444 wrote: post #145
monklu wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, I think this says less about FB, but more so reflects a hypocrisy in "western principles" that many are probably not self-aware of. Let's assume for a second, that FB do not relax their rules for this conflict. Then they would have to ban a whole sleuth of Ukrainian accounts, including many government accounts such as Ministry of Defense, and probably even Zelensky. You don't have to stretch your ima…

Private companies should not get in the business of policing content. Follow the laws of the land and that’s it. It’s not really a foreign concept. We don’t deny somebody sunlight or air because they do something we don’t like (we as in non government entities - governments do deny people “air”). The world would be a better place if businesses operated as close to a natural resource as possible and left politics to p…

I think Mastodon solves this problem to some extent, with their federated way of doing things.

Re: Russia opens criminal investigation of Meta over death calls on Facebook

#196

Post by pjmlp »

HonestOp001 wrote: post #185
trhway wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Tech companies are making themselves active participants in conflicts involving powerful countries. sometimes there are situations when one can't be neutral. A genocidal war like the one Russia is waging in Ukraine is such a situation. >Sooner or later, one of those countries is going to reach out and strike back in the physical world. Like Saudis did. So, it is a personal choice of everybody - whether to live by Ru…

Genocidal war is not what is occurring. It is a land war where Putin wants to gain access to and control significant resources and a warm body of water in the southeast.

I have other words for killing civilians.

Re: Russia opens criminal investigation of Meta over death calls on Facebook

#197

Post by throwawayacc2 »

trhway wrote: post #179
Mountain_Skies wrote: post #172

Tech companies are making themselves active participants in conflicts involving powerful countries. Sooner or later, one of those countries is going to reach out and strike back in the physical world. It's just a matter of time. When it was little nudges in color revolutions in relatively weak countries, there was not much to worry about. Now? They're playing with fire and the tech folks doesn't seem they have a clue…

>Tech companies are making themselves active participants in conflicts involving powerful countries. sometimes there are situations when one can't be neutral. A genocidal war like the one Russia is waging in Ukraine is such a situation. >Sooner or later, one of those countries is going to reach out and strike back in the physical world. Like Saudis did. So, it is a personal choice of everybody - whether to live by Ru…

I wish I had enough karma to downvote you. You are either extremely uninformed ( to the point where stupidity is actually a better explanation than ignorance) or, more likely, maliciously spreading misinformation.

Let me remove any kind of doubt. Ukraine is being invaded by a dictator deserving of all condemnation. Putin has started an illegal war and this is bad. No part of his actions are justifiable.

What is not happening in Ukraine however is a genocide. To claim that is wrong, unhelpful and stupid.

Re: Russia opens criminal investigation of Meta over death calls on Facebook

#198

Post by macintux »

aerovistae wrote: post #194
monklu wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, I think this says less about FB, but more so reflects a hypocrisy in "western principles" that many are probably not self-aware of. Let's assume for a second, that FB do not relax their rules for this conflict. Then they would have to ban a whole sleuth of Ukrainian accounts, including many government accounts such as Ministry of Defense, and probably even Zelensky. You don't have to stretch your ima…

Reminds me of my favorite internet essay of all time, no longer available except on wayback machine[1] > ...the US criminal justice system is overwhelmingly preoccupied with procedure and process, often at the expense of justice. This myopia is the product of a technocratic bureaucracy. > The contemporary incarnation of the peculiar mindset of Anglo-American jurisprudence leads to the question, “Were the rights of al…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_cases_make_bad_law

Re: Russia opens criminal investigation of Meta over death calls on Facebook

#199

Post by Bouncingsoul1 »

shihab wrote: post #133
Bouncingsoul1 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Since the invasion, I haven't seen any articles on the topic and the US media have gone suddenly silent on their involvement." that's just not true pick your favourite search engine and you see articles on this topic from every major outlet.I checked for this Nyt, WP (US) , der spiegel(ger), guardian(uk). You see articles coming up the last 2 weeks, another spike was 2017 and before 2014. I guess if ran an analysis…

You're right, and yet I disagree with your main point. For every article about Azov or other far-right nationalists, there are like 100 saying Russia is spreading misinformation about Nazism in Ukraine (which can of course be true too). The ratio is not appropriate in my very subjective opinion. Another point about you mentioning The Guardian- I've always found before, specially so during this conflict, British media…

'The ratio is not appropriate in my very subjective opinion." you are making up a ratio without data to back it up and then say it is not appropriate?

Re: Russia opens criminal investigation of Meta over death calls on Facebook

#200

Post by _-david-_ »

trhway wrote: post #190
HonestOp001 wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genocidal war is not what is occurring. It is a land war where Putin wants to gain access to and control significant resources and a warm body of water in the southeast.

It is a genocidal war because Ukrainians are being killed and displaced for refusal to accept a Russian identity. Putin is pretty clear in denying to Ukrainians their identity and statehood. His plans for Ukrainians are like that of Hitler who wanted that land too for Slavic people - displacement and killing of resisting ones, conversion to "Russian" identity for the rest on those lands with limited statehood under c…

Russians are also dying. That means Ukraine is committing genocide on the Russians, right?
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