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Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

reuters.com

421–430 of 735 posts

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I don't think it was built with the intention of subjugation," But was it built with the intention of segregation?

Yes. The premise of a state which is 'for' a specific group inherently employs segregation. I say subjugation because I think there is a version of that system that maintains a Jewish ruling majority without subjugating the minority. Again, you can agree or disagree with a state that is built on segregation, but I ask that you include in your judgement the history and context of Israel's existence.

out of genuine curiosity, how would that system work? how can you prevent subjugating the Arab minority?

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#422
post #403
post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does that leave non observant Jews?

Presumably not a problem as Jewish is an ethnicity as well as a religion.

So if a non observant Jew wants to operate a shop on the Shabbat...then?

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but these are the arguments used to justify a Western nation not being able to exist in the Middle East because of having too inclusive values. What I'm looking for is an argument of why the two probabilities that I mentioned are small enough so that persecution is not a concern. If persecution is a concern, why should Israel care about being inconsistent? Being inconsistent in how Israel displays itself would…

Israel seems to care quite a bit about its image in the west, which is why every time news such as this comes out you see the same arguments trotted out over and over about how this is what’s necessary. Is western oriented propaganda and it’s important that it is seen for what it is. Now, as to your point about persecution. I do care about the safety and well-being of all involved in this. But your argument boils dow…

> there is something inherent in middle eastern culture writ large that makes people utterly incapable of living peacefully together

By any means this is the case, but in the current state of affairs, given the amount of hatred in the region, if Israel was a region of Palestine with no sovereignty, I don't think it would fare well for the Jews. How do I know this? This is publicly routinely announced by the Palestinian government, who, granted, are not the Palestinians, but you just need a minority for a persecution to happen. Of course peace and living along together is eventually possible.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#424

Most comments here are attacking the decision, or just quoting the decision, and following it up by a "wtf". Just being shocked is not an argument. Jews are or have been persecuted in all middle eastern countries. What would happen if they were a minority in a democratic state in the Middle East? Why would it be different than in the other democracies in the Middle East? Laws like these lower the probability of Jews…

> Jews are or have been persecuted in all middle eastern countries.

Jews have been prosecuted on many parts of the world and on different timelines of history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

They have also found refugee in Muslim community from Christian prosecution multiple times: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Musl...

> Laws like these lower the probability of Jews becoming a minority in Israel.

It doesn't. The children still remain Isreali citizens. Which means this is an inconvenience to the spouse and a quite racist law.

> And the probability of them being persecuted provided they become a minority is zero?

History shows that their prosecution, demographics, and geography are not that related. Jews got prosecuted because they held significant wealth in a certain societies. It's a power/wealth grab in certain cases; and finding an easy scapegoat in other cases.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#425

First of all, this isn't a ban on Israeli-Palestinian marriage, this is a restriction on the ability to gain citizenship through those marriages. I don't agree with that, but I do think it's important to clarify. Regarding comments I'm seeing here saying Israel is an apartheid state or that Israel is racist or that Israel the concept of a Jewish state is disgusting: Israel is the size of New Jersey. It is the only st…

> Israel was not built by its founders to be a melting pot, it was built as a home for displaced Jewish people. It was not built to be a place of equality, and unfortunately, by its nature it cannot be one and continue to serve its purpose. If you think that purpose is racist, you are entitled to that opinion... Not really, because according the IHRA espousing such a view is antisemitic[0]. [0] https://www.holocaustr…

I don't agree that there is anything fundamentally antisemitic about criticizing Israel or its policies. While I think some antisemitic people hold that viewpoint, there is plenty of valid criticism for the actions of the Israeli government and its military. Sometimes, saying criticism of Israel is antisemitic is just a way of shutting down someone who is giving criticism, though, conversely I will also say that it's unfair to claim any dissent to dissent is an accusation of antisemitism. I'm not accusing you of that, I did want to bring it into the discourse though, given your point.

I will include the quote you're citing here for the purpose of a TL;DR: Under a list of "Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life," included is "claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor."

That's their definition, they do say at the top of the article it's a "Non-legally binding working definition of antisemitism," so anyone can draw their own. I personally don't think it's necessarily antisemitic to argue Israeli's policies are discriminatory/or racist, depending on how you are defining racism.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#426

Look I always encourage people to read the Israeli constitution. Jewish state. Fact. Not multicultural, not secular. Jewish. That was the founders design.

"Founders" have no magic monopoly on being right or wrong.

And the population may or may not now disagree with what the "Founders" intended.

Times change. People evolve. Hopefully for the better. Too often for the worse.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#427
post #11

This is an apartheid regime. Plain and simple.

South Africa took a lot of flak for their apartheid. Wonder why the same doesn't happen with this apartheid in the XXI century. That's a shame.

The fact that Israel was created specifically as a national refuge for a historically marginalized and genocided people makes it very difficult to make nuanced criticism of that country. The rhetorical distance between anti-Zionism[0] and anti-Semitism is actually not that high. You can make a nuanced critique of Israel, but most people doing so would much rather consider the people and the government one and the same... and call for death to both of them. Conversely, early on in Israel's history, a lot of well-meaning people really did think we actually needed a Jewish-majority nation to prevent another Holocaust; so they had even more support than they do today.

Geopolitically, Israel made the diplomatic masterstroke of allying itself heavily with America, which makes it rather difficult to actually punish them through the official channels for such things. Even things like symbolic non-binding UN condemnations of the most heinous things Israel has done would get regularly vetoed by the US up until recently.

Furthermore, there's a question that most anti-Zionism doesn't have a good answer to: how do we keep another Holocaust from happening? Winding down the underlying Israel-Palestine conflict in a one-state solution means significantly diluting the Jewish majority in Israel with people who are, justifiably, very angry about the shit Israel did. Actually, they're unjustifiably angry, too; and one of the prevailing political parties in Palestine has made "commit another Holocaust" one of their explicit goals[1].

Conditioning any peace solution on special protected status for Jews might fix this, but the only difference between that and "special protected status for whites in South Africa" is an increasingly flimsy social context that's doing an awful lot of work. It would be difficult to balance the need to prevent another Holocaust against the needs of Palestinians, and the sort of right-wingers that like the idea of race wars would absolutely insist on their needs overriding the "other side's"[2].

Nothing I said above should be taken as justifying Israel's nonsense, or the nonsense of Hamas, of course. But Zionism relies upon all other alternatives either being unworkable, or worse. Israel is very much akin to an apartheid state, but all the countries that can really put pressure on Israel to stop that have no moral authority to do so. The UK and France are responsible for partitioning Palestine in the first place; Germany killed six million Jews; and America refused to admit refugees from that genocide. Zionism is banking on history repeating[3]; or at least people believing that it will repeat should Israel step back from the brink of ethnostate nationalism.

[0] For the purpose of this comment I will restrict "Zionism" to just the demand for a non-secular Jewish state in the land currently occupied by Israel and/or Palestine; i.e. Zionism in it's current form.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant

Granted, this is #NotAllOfHamas, but party hardliners still insist it's their manifesto.

[2] Insamuch as you can even neatly divide the people in question into two "sides". In fact, Israel and Palestine do not divide neatly into Jewish and Muslim; there are plenty of Israeli Arabs and Palestinian Jews out there.

[3] When they aren't insisting that this is an "ancient conflict" to make their side seem more legitimate.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm trying really hard to put aside the racist comments... This still doesn't explain how these women are obtaining Israeli citizenship if polygamy is illegal.

Pointing out dramatic differences between cultures is not racist, and pretending they do not exist to honor misguided western virtues while supporting loose immigration policies breeds resentment among those (typically lower income) who are forced to suffer the friction of cultural clash. Third world immigrants are far less likely than natives to care about your laws, just as they are far less likely to honor your id…

I think you are missing their point, which is that under Israeli law the multiple wives are already not legally recognized, so this change (not recognizing Palestinian spouses for citizenship) was not needed to prevent what you are talking about. I don't think anyone "in the west" is advocating for the treatment of women you are talking about. People here are just pointing out that a) this is an incredibly broad brush and b) doesn't seem to be directly related to whether the state of Israel recognizes legal marriages to foreign Arabs as a path to citizenship for those people.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#429
post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your source: "Israeli politicians say the law is both an essential security measure to prevent Palestinian terror attacks and a means of preserving a Jewish majority in Israel." Maybe it's more of an immigration policy than a security policy?

It's a policy of apartheid, which is motivated by both immigration and security. Fortunately, as we have learned over the past few weeks, sanctions are an effective means of pushback against archaic 20-th century statesmanship.

> as we have learned over the past few weeks, sanctions are an effective means of pushback

Not really. The war in Ukraine is intensifying. Russia sees the sanctions regime as an act of war. I'm not sure what the off ramp would be, and I generally support the sanctions. But I don't think your conclusions are sound. Pushback? Yes. Effective? Not so far.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#430
post #84

This article doesn’t really provide much in the way of explanation for why this law is being enacted. Here [0] is a better article that quotes supporters and objectors to the law. It includes the (IMHO not very convincing) figures that "Between 1993 and 2003, around 130,000 Palestinians were given Israeli citizenship or residency through family unification, including children, according to court filings. The Shin Bet…

.037% terrorism sounds high to me

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