Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

391–400 of 735 posts

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#391

Post by thatsmyfribble »

zd123 wrote: post #361
thatsmyfribble wrote: post #259

First of all, this isn't a ban on Israeli-Palestinian marriage, this is a restriction on the ability to gain citizenship through those marriages. I don't agree with that, but I do think it's important to clarify. Regarding comments I'm seeing here saying Israel is an apartheid state or that Israel is racist or that Israel the concept of a Jewish state is disgusting: Israel is the size of New Jersey. It is the only st…

You can try diverting from the core issue at hand, using semantic sleights of hand, but it’s becoming apparent that Israel is indeed an apartheid state. By the laws it enacts and the oppression they enable, it is the definition of a racist state. The world is beginning to see it too, though very slowly.

I think in a conversation that's this divisive it's critical to be semantically very clear. I don't know that I'm using any sleights of hand, but if you want to agree to very specific definitions on the terms being discussed I always think that's useful.

Regarding the apartheid analogy:

I don't want to get into a semantic sleight of hand here, but the term apartheid comes from Dutch Afrikaans to describe their rule over South Africa. I genuinely don't believe the analogy of Dutch settlers colonizing Africa is comparable to displaced Jews establishing Israel. But again, you could consider my use of colonizing versus establishing a semantic sleight of hand. Depending on your definition of colonization, you could say Israel is a colonial state. I'm not saying that's what you're saying, but I don't agree with that definition.

If we're defining racism as unequal treatment of different groups based on race, then yes, Israel is a racist state because clearly, as is evident from this article, they are treating groups differently based on race (that is, if we're defining Judaism as a racial/ethnic designation rather than a religious one). I will not defend Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people, but I think it is worth defending the concept of Israel as a state that does not fundamentally need to be racist.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#392

Post by zd123 »

joshenberg wrote: post #377
zd123 wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can try diverting from the core issue at hand, using semantic sleights of hand, but it’s becoming apparent that Israel is indeed an apartheid state. By the laws it enacts and the oppression they enable, it is the definition of a racist state. The world is beginning to see it too, though very slowly.

The existential crisis of Judaism is indeed a core issue, although I am of the opinion that it does not justify the tactics and laws present. That does make it an Apartheid state. However, OP used no semantic sleights and the suggestion he did is concerning to discourse. He was describing its origins, and you its current conditions. If you reject the idea the Jewish people would like / need a homeland then just say t…

OP begins by saying:

“ Regarding comments I'm seeing here saying Israel is an apartheid state or that Israel is racist or that Israel the concept of a Jewish state is disgusting”

Then later on says:

“Israel was not built by its founders to be a melting pot, it was built as a home for displaced Jewish people. It was not built to be a place of equality, and unfortunately, by its nature it cannot be one and continue to serve its purpose”

How does that make sense? How is this logically coherent?

Well its no different to showing you a pack of cards (i.e Israel is not a place of equality by their own omission).

And then making the entire pack of cards disappear (calling Israel is racist).

Granted OP does it in a different order.

Dude should be on Penn and Teller hes a goddamn magician.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#394

Post by nix23 »

ravar wrote: post #335
nix23 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Jews are an ethnic group, not a religion. Ethnoreligious...to be precise.

Atheist Christian doesn't make much sense last time I checked.

It's a raw definition of a group and not of a single person.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreligious_group

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#395

Post by simiones »

bitcurious wrote: post #108
nix23 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah see, sh*t like that happens when you make a country only based on/for a religion.

Based on ethnic identity, which is how the vast majority of non-Americas nations are structured. Japan for Japanese, Italy for Italians, Israel for Jews. As an immigrant, I’m partial to the American civic approach, but Israel ain’t special.

There are two major problems when comparing these:

1. Israel wasn't formed organically, they first had to get rid of the hundreds of thousands of pesky Palestinians living in Palestine for a few hundred years. The Japanese didn't take over a, say, Chinese island and settle there (though they tried in Manchuria during WWII).

2. None of the other states you mention has anything resembling the ethno-state character of Israel. There is nothing in the Italian constitution that is even slightly aimed at making sure a non-Italian can't become president (even if not explicitly prohibiting it)[0]. Italy doesn't recognize the right of ethnic Italians to automatically become citizens by moving to Italy.

[0] though it's rare, there are well known cases of nation states having presidents of minority ethnicity. For example, right now in the middle of war, the president of Ukraine is himself Jewish. Also right now, Klaus Iohannis, of German ethnicity, is president of Romania. Peru has had an ethnically Japanese president (Alberto Fujimori) and more recently the son of an Austrian immigrant.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#396

Post by walkhour »

toolslive wrote: post #373
walkhour wrote: post #334

Most comments here are attacking the decision, or just quoting the decision, and following it up by a "wtf". Just being shocked is not an argument. Jews are or have been persecuted in all middle eastern countries. What would happen if they were a minority in a democratic state in the Middle East? Why would it be different than in the other democracies in the Middle East? Laws like these lower the probability of Jews…

> What would happen if they were a minority in a democratic state in the Middle East? Why would it be different than in the other democracies in the Middle East? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Parliament_religious_m...

Thank you for the link, why did the Jewish population go from at least 25,000 in 2000 to less than 9,000 today in Iran? Is it a common occurrence for a religious group to dwindle by half in two decades in a country?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#397

Post by nebula8804 »

Danidada wrote: post #152
pthread_t wrote: post #39

So, 21% of Israel's population has restrictions on who they could marry all so that they can maintain a majority of the favored demographic. This is apartheid.

they can marry whoever they want, they just won't be naturalized ie if a Palestinian marries an Israeli, the Palestinian won't get Israeli citizenship

I have seen this talking point repeated exactly in this manner all over Reddit. Was this dispatched from one of those Israel apps that navigate supporters to social media sites to push pro-Israel talking points?

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#398

Post by dmitris »

Danidada wrote: post #152
pthread_t wrote: post #39

So, 21% of Israel's population has restrictions on who they could marry all so that they can maintain a majority of the favored demographic. This is apartheid.

they can marry whoever they want, they just won't be naturalized ie if a Palestinian marries an Israeli, the Palestinian won't get Israeli citizenship

what about their children?

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#399

Post by dundarious »

Danidada wrote: post #152
pthread_t wrote: post #39

So, 21% of Israel's population has restrictions on who they could marry all so that they can maintain a majority of the favored demographic. This is apartheid.

they can marry whoever they want, they just won't be naturalized ie if a Palestinian marries an Israeli, the Palestinian won't get Israeli citizenship

Israel has many laws dictating where you can live and between which areas you can travel, and they depend on its complicated notion of citizenship and nationality. You have far fewer restrictions as a "Jewish nationality, Israeli citizen" than as "any other kind of nationality, Israeli citizen". This is the meaningful difference people are referring to when they say that "Israel is an ethnostate" or talk about "apartheid", because in many instances, in practice you can only do certain basic things like live with your partner if you are a "Jewish nationality, Israeli citizen".

Just to give a short (but relatively surface-level) proof that this distinction is real and meaningful in Israeli politics, you can read the most recent former PM's statements in the following link (and I would encourage reading a broad political spectrum of commentary on the various citizenship and nationality laws, in particular those passed in the last few decades, e.g., Nation-State Law): https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Benjamin-Netanyahu/Netanya...

Post reply on HN