Look I always encourage people to read the Israeli constitution. Jewish state. Fact. Not multicultural, not secular. Jewish. That was the founders design.
What’s your point?
Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses
401–410 of 735 posts
Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses
#402Earlier quoted context omitted.
Advocates for Israel like to use other middle eastern states to excuse all sorts of behavior. The problem is that they try to have their cake and eat it to with these comparisons. “Israel is the only democratic state in the Middle East!” -but the systematically control the non Jewish population. Israel wants to display itself as the image of a society that has the same values as western states, while practicing the s…
Sure, but these are the arguments used to justify a Western nation not being able to exist in the Middle East because of having too inclusive values. What I'm looking for is an argument of why the two probabilities that I mentioned are small enough so that persecution is not a concern. If persecution is a concern, why should Israel care about being inconsistent? Being inconsistent in how Israel displays itself would…
Israel seems to care quite a bit about its image in the west, which is why every time news such as this comes out you see the same arguments trotted out over and over about how this is what’s necessary.
Is western oriented propaganda and it’s important that it is seen for what it is.
Now, as to your point about persecution. I do care about the safety and well-being of all involved in this. But your argument boils down to one of two things: either there is something inherent in middle eastern culture writ large that makes people utterly incapable of living peacefully together, or the Israelis have mistreated the Palestinians so much that they have opened themselves up to terrifying revenge.
Now for the latter case, that is simply no excuse for continuing said behavior. And as to the former, it simply is not true. The Middle East has been a melting pot for centuries and it hasn’t been remarkably more violent than other regions of the world is one takes a longer historical view (not to mention the significant conflict over oil resources with the west)
Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses
#403Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses
#404First of all, this isn't a ban on Israeli-Palestinian marriage, this is a restriction on the ability to gain citizenship through those marriages. I don't agree with that, but I do think it's important to clarify. Regarding comments I'm seeing here saying Israel is an apartheid state or that Israel is racist or that Israel the concept of a Jewish state is disgusting: Israel is the size of New Jersey. It is the only st…
Obvious diversion from the core issue. Israel must either grant the occupied lands true sovereignty and have their ethnostate or end the occupation and grant them equal civilian rights. Either way they must end their occupation of both Gaza and the West Bank. You start off saying that it's 'disgusting' to call Israel a racist state and then conclude by saying that it was always intended to be a 'Jewish state' and not…
My comment was phrased poorly. I didn't mean to say it was disgusting to call Israel a racist state, I commented on people who are calling Israel's actions disgusting--I apologize if that wasn't a clear distinction in my comment--quotation marks would have made it clearer. I don't think it's disgusting to have an opinion on Israel's actions and policies.
I would argue that the core issue around this article is not the occupations of Gaza and the West Bank. For one, while Israel has tremendous control over the Gaza region, it is self governed and not occupied by Israel--that's semantics, but I do want to make the distinction between the level of autonomy Gaza has versus the level the West Bank has.
I agree with the two options you put forwards, and I personally prefer the latter. I think the only path to peace in Israel is to end the occupation, make peace with Gaza, move the capital to Tel Aviv, and establish Jerusalem as a U.N. Mandate. I don't think Israel has a valid claim to exclusive control over what many groups consider the holiest place on earth, but I also don't think other groups who consider it a holy place should have exclusive control over it either. Putting the U.N. in control of it is an imperfect solution, but better than what we have now for peace in the region. That's my two cents that no one asked for.
Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses
#405Earlier quoted context omitted.
Quoted post unavailable.
I'm trying really hard to put aside the racist comments... This still doesn't explain how these women are obtaining Israeli citizenship if polygamy is illegal.
I applaud your patience, as the thread was really clear about this from the beginning, and comments were missing the point one by one. This is a beautiful HN moment were people managed to have a debate about a very touchy topic, and everyone stayed very polite.
Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses
#406Most comments here are attacking the decision, or just quoting the decision, and following it up by a "wtf". Just being shocked is not an argument. Jews are or have been persecuted in all middle eastern countries. What would happen if they were a minority in a democratic state in the Middle East? Why would it be different than in the other democracies in the Middle East? Laws like these lower the probability of Jews…
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Right, it should only make their concerns bigger if Palestinians have a genuine reason to despise them.
Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses
#407[flagged]
This law has nothing to do with intermarriage for Jews. That's effectively prohibited by other existing laws. This law tries to prevent Muslims and Christians living in non-annexed occupied territories from marrying other Muslims and Christians living outside of Israel's effective control area.
You're right. I disagree with the policy myself but others are making it look like this would be abnormal. If they didn't have to pander to western ideals they could maybe implement a clean and painless definition of a border. Taking decades to colonize an area helps no one.
I support the right for Israel to exist and if they must expel the inhabitants of the land they have taken. But the mistreatment of palestinians is not acceptable by theirs or any other abrahamic faith.
Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses
#408Earlier quoted context omitted.
Quoted post unavailable.
Ah yes, the Arab hivemind sub plot to take over your country with little brown babies overtaking precious white ones. I, too, get concerned of the explosion of disgusting brown people that threatens my beautiful non Arabic speaking country. /s if not clear.
I don't personally have a problem with Arabs so take what I say with a grain of salt.
However, isn't what you're describing colonization? If the US or the UK announced a program of attempting to colonize 3rd-world countries, those countries would reflexively ban US immigration. Why the double standard?
Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses
#409Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ah yes, the Arab hivemind sub plot to take over your country with little brown babies overtaking precious white ones. I, too, get concerned of the explosion of disgusting brown people that threatens my beautiful non Arabic speaking country. /s if not clear.
Arabs are not "brown". GJ on unintentional racism
I don't see the profit in trying to catch them on a small and clearly not meaningful technicality in their phrasing.
Genuine question, do you truly feel the commenter is a racist, and you just stepped in and called them out successfully?
What seems much more likely is that they, in their sarcasm, were doing an imitation of an ignorant conservative stereotype by focusing on skin color and grouping all middle easterners into a group. This seems fairly obvious to me - is that not how you're interpreting this?
Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses
#410We see more and more similar laws being passed in recent years, laws that are blatantly discriminatory. This may raise the indignation of many people, but in my opinion, Israel is shooting itself in the foot by passing these laws, because it reinforces the argument that it is an apartheid regime. Israel is slowly losing its support in the free democratic world where people believe in the inalienable universal rights…
Is Israel losing its support? Hasn't quantifiable monetary support towards Israel been growing for decades? Just look at the list of US allies and the kind of laws they pass, think of Arabia Saudi, a good US ally that had been tormenting Yemen for years now. Is the US population clamoring to stop collaboration with this country? Of course not, most people wouldn't know the first thing about this. I think sometimes we…
> if you meant moral support by the citizens of other countries I'm not sure how much Israel cares about that.
They care a lot. That's why they try so hard to counter pro-Palestinian sentiment with full-time paid propagandists, threat campaigns, media campaigns, smear campaigns, political bribes, getting people fired, attacking students and groups that support Palestine, throwing shit-fits at growing BDS campaigns, etc, etc, etc...
Yes, the US population is similarly quiet on the SA front - that's neither accidental or natural. Even then, it's crumbling.
> Hasn't quantifiable monetary support towards Israel been growing for decades?
Globally speaking, the US govt haven't really been on the side of the 'good guys' for decades. Realizing that, it doesn't make all that much sense to use their funding of evil regimes as any sort of justification, or reflection of the will of the general populace.