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Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

reuters.com

301–310 of 735 posts

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#301
I don't condone this law, but I think people here are missing an opportunity for understanding. I see so much black-vs-white moral righteousness on HN lately when really, the world is a sea of grey. And understanding a thing does not mean agreeing with a thing. But a little empathy might soften the inflammatory rhetoric.

Israel is proud of their Jewish heritage, and are generally surrounded by millions of people from other ethnic and religious backgrounds who hate them. I mean, it is very common to hear people in countries near Israel openly calling for death to the Jews or destruction of the Jewish state (essentially advocating genocide). Hell, I remember tweets from the Ayatollah promoting violence against Israel, and Twitter just let it fly.

In light of all the historical context and current geographical situation, I can understand the motivation to have a law like this. Whether it's morally just, effective, or just openly racist is certainly up for debate, but to me it is not so clear-cut as others would say.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA just passed omnibus 2022 $1.5T spending bill which has $250 Million for Israel iron dome upgrades.. there is a POWERFUL Israeli lobby in the USA that won't let such sanctions get off the floor.

They got $1 billion for the iron dome [1] Regarding the Israel lobby, it is strong, but it's losing its grip: 25% of American Jews consider Israel to be an apartheid state [2] Young evangelicals are increasingly turning away from Israel [3] [1] https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/.premium-u-s-senate-approves... [2] https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/a-quarter-of-u-s-jews-agree-... [3] https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-fr…

Ultimately this is probably the key to change. As of yet Israel has had carte blanche to do what it wanted because the U.S. wants to have a proxy and looks the other way. Aid should be conditional on a sustainable solution, otherwise the U.S. is virtually complicit. This game of "we didn't make them do it" and showering them with cash and arms isn't fooling most people. I don't see how the country can go on pretending it doesn't have the capacity to strongly influence an outcome, it's just that the aggregate political will is not there yet.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#303
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Older founding documents for the US enshrined it as a White nation.

I've never heard that. Source?

Perhaps referring to:

> The Naturalization Act of 1790 (1 Stat. 103, enacted March 26, 1790) was a law of the United States Congress that set the first uniform rules for the granting of United States citizenship by naturalization. The law limited naturalization to "free White person(s) ... of good character", thus excluding Native Americans, indentured servants, slaves, free black people and later Asians, although free black people were allowed citizenship at the state level in a number of states.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalization_Act_of_1790

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_nationalism#United_State...

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#304

We see more and more similar laws being passed in recent years, laws that are blatantly discriminatory. This may raise the indignation of many people, but in my opinion, Israel is shooting itself in the foot by passing these laws, because it reinforces the argument that it is an apartheid regime. Israel is slowly losing its support in the free democratic world where people believe in the inalienable universal rights…

Is Israel losing its support? Hasn't quantifiable monetary support towards Israel been growing for decades?

Just look at the list of US allies and the kind of laws they pass, think of Arabia Saudi, a good US ally that had been tormenting Yemen for years now. Is the US population clamoring to stop collaboration with this country? Of course not, most people wouldn't know the first thing about this.

I think sometimes we overestimate how much governments are willing to do just because people are not fine with it, assuming they actually have any understanding of what's going on.

And if you meant moral support by the citizens of other countries I'm not sure how much Israel cares about that.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#305

First of all, this isn't a ban on Israeli-Palestinian marriage, this is a restriction on the ability to gain citizenship through those marriages. I don't agree with that, but I do think it's important to clarify. Regarding comments I'm seeing here saying Israel is an apartheid state or that Israel is racist or that Israel the concept of a Jewish state is disgusting: Israel is the size of New Jersey. It is the only st…

"Israel was not built by its founders to be a melting pot, it was built as a home for displaced Jewish people. It was not built to be a place of equality, and unfortunately, by its nature it cannot be one and continue to serve its purpose. If you think that purpose is racist, you are entitled to that opinion, but there are many who believe what Jews have faced throughout history justify a Jewish homeland, and it is v…

I don't think it was built with the intention of subjugation, but I think it has been a consequence of its implementation and politics. I do think there is a version of a Jewish state that doesn't behave like this, but its current political consensus is not that state.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>”How would Europeans react to the import of Arabs with the explicit intention of making Europe an Arab continent?” Is this meant to be some theoretical gotcha? Firstly, anyone who believes in what you’ve quoted is soundly dismissed as a paranoid conspiracy theorist - a racist one at that. Secondly, this strikes me as “you guys would pass the same law if you could get away with it”. But the main reason why this kind…

> anyone who believes in what you’ve quoted is soundly dismissed as a paranoid conspiracy theorist - a racist one at that The fine article mentions explicitly that this is the goal of the marriages in question.

This fine article also says “It comes off as more xenophobic or racist (than other laws) because it’s not only giving extra rights and privileges to Jewish people, but also preventing certain basic rights only from the Arab population”.

People are opposed to it because it 1) codifies that an Israeli citizen’s race is an acceptable criterion for determining which rights they are entitled to, and 2) the law is a reactionary measure expressly designed to discriminate and maintain racial/ethnic composition. The people who voted for it aren’t even trying to hide it or dog-whistle it away: “"The State of Israel is Jewish and so it will remain," said Simcha Rothman of the far-right Religious Zionism party””

Any such law, anywhere, would be soundly denounced and repealed. Especially in Europe, which you had mentioned in your hypothetical question.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The State of Israel is Jewish and so it will remain," said Simcha Rothman of the far-right Religious Zionism party, a member of the opposition who brought the law forward with Interior Minister Ayelet Shaked. "Today, God willing, Israel's defensive shield will be significantly strengthened," he told the Knesset hours before the vote.

I'm baffled how the people who survived the Holocaust, among numerous other persecutions, are now so intolerant of another persecuted people.

Israeli right-wingers don’t see Palestinians as a persecuted minority in a vacuum. They see them as members of the Arab ethnicity of the surrounding states which are much larger in size and population. In the late 1960s Syria and Egypt actually formed into one state and tried to annihilate and absorb Israel in a pincer movement. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_Republic

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#308
post #299

First of all, this isn't a ban on Israeli-Palestinian marriage, this is a restriction on the ability to gain citizenship through those marriages. I don't agree with that, but I do think it's important to clarify. Regarding comments I'm seeing here saying Israel is an apartheid state or that Israel is racist or that Israel the concept of a Jewish state is disgusting: Israel is the size of New Jersey. It is the only st…

Quoted post unavailable.

No, not a bot either, just don't want my actual account getting downvoted to hell for expressing my honest opinion.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

South Africa is/was a western ally. And the West did ignore apartheid for a long time.

South Africa abstained to vote on UN resolution against Russian large attack on Ukraine. West didn't ignore apartheid, they quietly supported it, because USSR supported Mandela and anti-apartheid struggle. Kinda "enemy of my enemy is my friend". IMHO that was the stupidest position of the US, they should've "united" with USSR on anti-apartheid position.

When one factor "Capitalism vs. Communism" is the lens through which you view the world, then "are they on our side" becomes more important than "are they good people".

That is why the west supported some terrible regimes, including Apartheid South Africa and Pinochet in Chile. Because they could claim to be "anti-communist".

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#310
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah see, sh*t like that happens when you make a country only based on/for a religion.

Based on ethnic identity, which is how the vast majority of non-Americas nations are structured. Japan for Japanese, Italy for Italians, Israel for Jews. As an immigrant, I’m partial to the American civic approach, but Israel ain’t special.

Italy is explicitly defined in its constitution as a state that does not discriminate on the basis of religion or race. It even recognises a level of jus-soli citizenship for children of non-citizens if born in the country, although after they reach 18 years of age. So I don't know why you'd point it out as an ethnostate - which it definitely has not been for generations, if ever.

I know "Italians are racists lol" trends in football subreddits, but that has nothing to do with the law of the land.

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