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The Lie That Made Me

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Re: The Lie That Made Me

#101

Post by qiskit »

WalterBright wrote: post #98
qiskit wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But here's the Ann Landers I already know about the list but I'm not one to take advice from someone like ann landers. > I have no idea if she was a good mother or not, but it's unfair to presume she wasn't. A mother who intentionally deprives her children of their fathers and intentionally brings her children into a life of poverty? I'd say she's the definition of a bad mother.

> advice I bet if you consider it in the light of your personal experience with people, you'll find it has merit. Welfare in America means free food, free housing, free medical care, and free education. With loving parents, that's what one needs. I agree that an absent father is deleterious, though.

> I bet if you consider it in the light of your personal experience with people, you'll find it has merit.

In my experience, all people tend to gossip, like ann landers herself. If you disagree, try corporate america or a college campus.

> Welfare in America means free food, free housing, free medical care, and free education.

It means poverty. Section 8 housing and processed junk food mostly. It's better than homelessness and starvation, but far from ideal.

> With loving parents, that's what one needs.

Loving parents generally don't intentionally start their children's lives on welfare.

> I agree that an absent father is deleterious, though.

Certainly not something a good mother would intentionally do to their children.

Life's not perfect but some make it imperfect on purpose. You really have to wonder about people sometimes.

Re: The Lie That Made Me

#102

Post by JadeNB »

cinntaile wrote: post #90
JadeNB wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think you still get to choose character traits or other genetic factors even though the donor is anonymous? I suspect that there's no persuasive evidence that character traits are determined by genetic factors in ways that we can control or reliably predict.

Children usually resemble their parents more than you seem to think. There is probably plenty of research out there that tries to find out how much is due to nature or nurture.

> Children usually resemble their parents more than you seem to think.

Neither of our anecdata will be useful for much here; I could just as well say that actually children usually resemble their parents less than you seem to think.

> There is probably plenty of research out there that tries to find out how much is due to nature or nurture.

Probably! But I don't know what it is, or what its conclusion is, so just saying that it probably exists doesn't advance either of our arguments.

Re: The Lie That Made Me

#103

Post by JadeNB »

akavi wrote: post #39
JadeNB wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think you still get to choose character traits or other genetic factors even though the donor is anonymous? I suspect that there's no persuasive evidence that character traits are determined by genetic factors in ways that we can control or reliably predict.

Given that mental illness is stochastically predictable via genetics, I'd be very surprised if that's true. A quick google found a twin study suggesting that they're significantly inheritable: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8776880/

> Given that mental illness is stochastically predictable via genetics, I'd be very surprised if that's true.

I guess mental illness can count as a personality trait, but I think there's considerable scope for personality traits well below the level of mental illness.

Re: The Lie That Made Me

#104

Post by WalterBright »

qiskit wrote: post #101
WalterBright wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> advice I bet if you consider it in the light of your personal experience with people, you'll find it has merit. Welfare in America means free food, free housing, free medical care, and free education. With loving parents, that's what one needs. I agree that an absent father is deleterious, though.

> I bet if you consider it in the light of your personal experience with people, you'll find it has merit. In my experience, all people tend to gossip, like ann landers herself. If you disagree, try corporate america or a college campus. > Welfare in America means free food, free housing, free medical care, and free education. It means poverty. Section 8 housing and processed junk food mostly. It's better than homele…

> In my experience, all people tend to gossip

Here's an anecdote you might find relevant:

At Caltech, a good friend of mine lived in an apartment next to campus. He could only cook one dish, chicken wings, and was rightly famous for them. Once a month, he invited all comers for chicken wing night. His poor little apartment would get stuffed with students stuffing themselves.

Except for one. A middle-aged man would come in, get some wings, and just sit quietly in a corner. After seeing this a few times, I went over to ask him who he was, and why he was here. After all, he must be bored stiff listening to our prattle.

He said he was the apartment manager, and far from bored, he was fascinated to just sit and listen to the conversations. He said he'd never heard anyone talk like that before, nor had he heard anyone talk about the topics we did.

And no, the conversations were not about football, drinking, or sex.

> far from ideal

You've changed the goal posts from "what one needs" to "ideal".

Re: The Lie That Made Me

#105

Post by WalterBright »

aklemm wrote: post #94
WalterBright wrote: post #62

At one of the military bases my dad was stationed at, he told me about a local woman who was going about this the old fashioned way. She was dark haired, and had 6 blonde boys. Every year when there was a new crew at the base, she'd show up at the local watering hole and scout out the tallest, blondest, smartest serviceman she could find, and you can guess the rest. She never wanted anything else from those men, and…

Apocryphal and dubious. Likely a myth to prop up the collective confidence in being breeding stock.

I have no proof, other than my dad wasn't known for telling tall tales. He related the story because it was both unusual and amusing.

You can believe whatever you like.

Re: The Lie That Made Me

#106

Post by samtho »

morgante wrote: post #70
madrox wrote: post #27

This is so incredibly sad. At this point in my life, I empathize with the involuntary donor quite a bit. While the author might not understand his position not wanting her to have any contact with him or his family, I certainly do. It's clear this doctor has a pattern of deceptive behavior beyond merely his practice. It's also clear that if one doctor does it, someone else has or will. I wonder how the medical board…

Yeah, I completely sympathize with the donor. He didn't want this child and should not be forced to add another family member because the author (selfishly) wants contact with her father. The author is also clearly in denial. If she "didn’t care about finding [her] biological father" she wouldn't have put tremendous effort into it (including writing this article).

I’m assuming you had the privilege of knowing your biological family, in which case it can be difficult to fully understand one’s motivation behind attempting to locate them.

“Anonymous” sperm and egg donors that are able to be found and contacted at least they knew they what they were signing up for in that 3rd parties would be using their gametes to have their own children. In this case, someone who had banked sperm for their use in the future only had it instead used in this situation.

This article brings attention to the dismal state of the fertility industry that has no professional accountability despite providing services to create new life. It is rather insensitive to trivialize what this person is feeling by calling her selfish for wanting to know who her father is as if it’s some luxury and lacking in empathy to dismiss these feelings by simply stating she is in denial. In addition to the trauma caused by learning that she was donor conceived, learning that clinic royally fucked up has robbed her of the opportunity to establish contact with her biological family due to the situation the clinic put her in.

Re: The Lie That Made Me

#107

Post by cinntaile »

JadeNB wrote: post #102
cinntaile wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Children usually resemble their parents more than you seem to think. There is probably plenty of research out there that tries to find out how much is due to nature or nurture.

> Children usually resemble their parents more than you seem to think. Neither of our anecdata will be useful for much here; I could just as well say that actually children usually resemble their parents less than you seem to think. > There is probably plenty of research out there that tries to find out how much is due to nature or nurture. Probably! But I don't know what it is, or what its conclusion is, so just say…

> Probably! But I don't know what it is, or what its conclusion is, so just saying that it probably exists doesn't advance either of our arguments.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0263-6

30-60% according to a bunch of studies. This particular study puts it closer to 60% than to 30%, which is in line with my own expectations but it's not a settled research question yet.

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