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DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

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Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#581

Post by paulmd »

gruez wrote: post #313
kube-system wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"unbiased" doesn't mean "unfiltered". For example, I don't want spam or malware in my search results. Search results should return good information that is relevant to your query, and filter out anything that is not that.

> "unbiased" doesn't mean "unfiltered". For example, I don't want spam or malware in my search results. That seems like a cop-out to me. They're not filtering "spam or malware", they're filtering "Russian disinformation". What's next? Maybe OAN is "right-wing disinformation" and we should "filter" that too? What about fox news? How far can you use that excuse to say you're not biased?

I mean, do you feel that Fox and OAN deserve the same "reputation score" as Nature? If so, why?

For as much whining here about the importance of free and open discussion, it's unfortunately verboten to say it, but fortunately people will usually bring it up of their own volition. It is like the "why are all the highly educated people so liberal!?!?" thing, deep down you know the answer, and it's not actually "because of liberal indoctrination!", it's that truth itself has a bias, and so "unbiased" results that merely prefer truthiness can have a bias themselves. The fix for that isn't to present both as equally reputable (or worse, for the answer to be "unknowable" simply because "two parties disagree"), it's for the affected party to stop pushing disinformation and falsehoods.

Not all sources are created equal. Not even all news sources are created equal. And if you agree to that, then we agree on the merits, and it's just the outcomes that you disagree with.

(And lest you disagree - Fox News themselves went to court to argue that their programming is not "news media" and is not intended to be a source of truth, in response to slander/libel suits for saying and writing things that are factually untrue to service their political agenda. So even Fox News agrees they should have a lesser "reputation score" than even other news media.)

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/new-yor...

Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#582

Post by deltarholamda »

archagon wrote: post #567
deltarholamda wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As opposed to, I dunno, an obvious collective response to a nation doing something incontrovertibly wrong? Can you explain how this is incontrovertibly different than other foreign war entanglements from the past few decades?

What was the last war that had such an overwhelming and unanimous international response?

That is question-begging of the first order, and also circular logic. "A unanimous response is not fishy, because it is incontrovertibly wrong; it is incontrovertibly wrong because the response is unanimous."

Very odd reply.

Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#583

Post by archagon »

deltarholamda wrote: post #582
archagon wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was the last war that had such an overwhelming and unanimous international response?

That is question-begging of the first order, and also circular logic. "A unanimous response is not fishy, because it is incontrovertibly wrong; it is incontrovertibly wrong because the response is unanimous." Very odd reply.

Not really. It is hard to get disparate nations to agree on anything, unless you suspect there is a secret, central party coordinating the response. Consensus of this unusual sort gives credence to the claims.

Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#584

Post by sidibe »

maratc wrote: post #572
mopsi wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I simply can't trust ANY media, search engine, or social network anymore. It's one of the key goals of Russian information warfare: to create a feeling that you can't tell truth apart from fiction, and to force you into apathy and paralyze you, so you become unable to act and protect your interests. Russians are among the largest pushers of conspiracy theories from Covid to QAnon, and have been for a very long time…

> Mearsheimer is an idiot and nobody takes him seriously in Eastern Europe Maybe they should have listened to that idiot when he suggested in 1993 that Ukraine retains some of its nuclear weapons to deter Russia from attacking it in the future.

And then what? Or do you mean the Americans should have listened to him? Eastern Europeans can't do anything but react to the USA's prodding in Mearsheimer and the like's view, they're just pawns to be played by the USA vs. the if-then AI known as Russia. The world is a 1 player game, everything that happens is ultimately due to the right or wrong decisions of the Americans

Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#585

Post by danShumway »

username3 wrote: post #528
bena wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're framing the discussion in the wrong way. Yes, if you're looking for "Russian Disinformation", you should be able to find it. But if I'm looking for "U.S. midterm elections", I shouldn't get Russian disinformation. What is the problem with modifying the algorithm to favor actual information over disinformation? Or sites that are known to propagate disinformation? The only thing I could say is that it's…

I shouldn’t get American disinformation, but your trusted sources are untouchable.

All general critiques about DDG aside, it is absolutely untrue that search engines never target American news sources for downranking. Google/DDG and other sites have removed and downranked American news sites on multiple occasions. Scroll through this very comment section and you'll find someone complaining about DDG's handling of Drudgereport[0].

It was not that long ago that we were having really fierce debates about when and how aggregators and algorithms should filter/downrank vaccine misinformation, and a ton of that debate revolved around downranking American news sources and commentators.

----

[0]: I do want to note that it isn't immediately clear to me that DDG did downrank Drudgereport, and sometimes people just get kind of conspiratorial about things, but I'm taking commenter at their word since I assume they have some source for that they just didn't mention.

Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#586

Post by deltarholamda »

pie42000 wrote: post #577
deltarholamda wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As opposed to, I dunno, an obvious collective response to a nation doing something incontrovertibly wrong? Can you explain how this is incontrovertibly different than other foreign war entanglements from the past few decades?

When was the last time a sovereign, democratic, western nation invaded?

You have to squint pretty hard to call Ukraine a western nation.

Is it the "western nation" part that makes this different?

Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#587

Post by tonguez »

mopsi wrote: post #541
kikokikokiko wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole Ukraine war teached me a thing I haven't noticed before: I simply can't trust ANY media, search engine, or social network anymore. It's a sad state of affairs, but since the invasion started my only source of "news" related to the war is a few, and I a said a FEW, Youtube channels. I'm brazilian and one channel I recommend is Fernando Ulrich's channel. He interviewed (in english) a lot people (ukrainians,…

> I simply can't trust ANY media, search engine, or social network anymore. It's one of the key goals of Russian information warfare: to create a feeling that you can't tell truth apart from fiction, and to force you into apathy and paralyze you, so you become unable to act and protect your interests. Russians are among the largest pushers of conspiracy theories from Covid to QAnon, and have been for a very long time…

“ It's one of the key goals of Russian information warfare”

were you born yesterday? do you not remember the iraq war? babies in incubators? vietnam? syrian gas attacks? russiagate? qanon? the 2014 ukraine coup? these are all things created by western TLAs. im not gonna read anything else you wrote but i noticed at the bottom you said

“knowledge is power”

wow thanks for that powerful insight!

Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#588

Post by gibrown »

pphysch wrote: post #65
gibrown wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people writing the search algorithms decide, just like they decide what a "good" algorithm is.

I would bet you $50 that DDG was handled/requested a blocklist of domains from a spooky US/UK govt associate and did not unilaterally create it themselves.

I kinda doubt the US govt cares about DDG.

Also, the US/UK gov is not an entirely unreasonable starting point for a list. There are also lots of academic researchers, media, etc. Better to apply some standards than none at all. I'm sure whatever list they have is not perfect, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have one.

Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#589

Post by gibrown »

bobobob420 wrote: post #222
pphysch wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would bet you $50 that DDG was handled/requested a blocklist of domains from a spooky US/UK govt associate and did not unilaterally create it themselves.

That is most likely what happened and the naivety around it is annoying.

It seems more naive to think search algorithms are ever "unbiased". The whole point is to find something by ranking them and applying a bias.
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