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The Great Cul-De-Sac Problem And How To Alleviate It.

chrisnorstrom.com

61–70 of 138 posts

Re: The Great Cul-De-Sac Problem And How To Alleviate It.

#61

The density in cul-de-sac neighborhoods is still too low to make it possible for residents to get to any of the basic services they need (school, grocery, etc) without driving. Adding a few roads to shave a mile or two off a commute or trip the store isn't going to make much of a difference. Our (american) cities desperately need urban growth boundaries to force density.

Why are you/we trying to force density when it's so obvious that most people want the exact opposite? [edit] I had in a house in a great neighborhood in the city within walking distance of grocery, restaurants, buses, etc., and I still moved to the suburbs. Obviously density's not the only thing people want.

Why are you/we trying to force density when it's so obvious that most people want the exact opposite?

The problem is that the playing field isn't level: as Edward Glaeser points out in his book, The Triumph of the City (highly recommended; http://www.amazon.com/Triumph-City-Greatest-Invention-Health...), there are numerous institutional barriers to urban living, including, in no particular order:

1) Mortgage interest tax deduction; since urban life favors multi-unit dwellings but condos have externalities single-family houses don't (it's hard to deal with a noisy upstairs neighbor when you both own), this favors suburbs.

2) Substantial car-based infrastructure investment that means car owners pay around half of the "total" or social cost of their driving.

3) Barriers to entry in urban areas, especially in the form of zoning height limits.

4) Tying education and education funding to geographic location.

I believe there are a couple others I've forgotten.

It's pretty obvious that a lot of people want density—if they didn't, housing prices in NYC, DC, Seattle, San Francisco, and others wouldn't be so high. Hold supply relatively constant while demand increases, and you get prices that zoom up. I would, in many ways, draw the opposite conclusion from yours.

Re: The Great Cul-De-Sac Problem And How To Alleviate It.

#62
post #55

To address a few of the myths: Myth 1: Who is he to say how people feel about their neighborhood is nonsense? There are plenty where the neighbors know each other, their kids play, they have block parties and BBQs, and there's a strong fabric of trust. To pitch them all as "nonsense" is to sweep away all pretense of objectivity. Myth 2: How much traffic someone gets varies widely with the street. In his red zone, I'd…

> An added question is whether people speed more in a closed community or in a grid. I live on a cul de sac and not a day goes by that I don't see someone speeding through the stop sign a few houses down. The cul de sac is not what appealed to me about where I'm living, and I would gladly give it up so I could ride my bicycle unimpeded to the subway station that's nearby without being forced out to the major highway…

Sure, and I've seen it, too; but for both of us, it's just anecdotal. It'll obviously depend on a lot of geo- and demo- and chronographic factors which one is worse.

Re: The Great Cul-De-Sac Problem And How To Alleviate It.

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you/we trying to force density when it's so obvious that most people want the exact opposite? [edit] I had in a house in a great neighborhood in the city within walking distance of grocery, restaurants, buses, etc., and I still moved to the suburbs. Obviously density's not the only thing people want.

Why are you/we trying to force density when it's so obvious that most people want the exact opposite? The problem is that the playing field isn't level: as Edward Glaeser points out in his book, The Triumph of the City (highly recommended; http://www.amazon.com/Triumph-City-Greatest-Invention-Health... ), there are numerous institutional barriers to urban living, including, in no particular order: 1) Mortgage interes…

> It's pretty obvious that a lot of people want density

Yes, but folks living in suburbs don't stop folks who like density from having it.

It's interesting that suburb dwellers never complain about other people's living choices. It's always the city fans who can't tolerate folks who want something else.

BTW - If you want high-density housing, you're going to have shared walls. It's unclear why you blame suburbs for that.

> 4) Tying education and education funding to geographic location.

That's actually less of an issue in densely populated areas, for somewhat obvious reasons.

As to the "car subsidy" argument, every time I've checked the numbers presented by folks who claim it exists, I've found that their accounting is borderline fraudulent. Of course, they're typically just passing along numbers from someone else, but ....

There is maybe one mass-transit system in the world that pays its operating costs and they all receive massive subsidies for capital expenditures, often from the gas tax....

Re: The Great Cul-De-Sac Problem And How To Alleviate It.

#64

I grew up on a cul-de-sac. I knew all of my neighbors and it was a great environment for a kid to grow up in. We had a nearby woods, too. We often walked and rode bikes.

Same here. One thing I've noticed is living on a road or in an apartment you don't really talk to your neighbors all that much. On a cul-de-sac you do get to know them.

Re: The Great Cul-De-Sac Problem And How To Alleviate It.

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never lived in a cul-de-sac (which btw is french for a dead-end street), but spent my childhood playing outside all the same. Narrow, one-way streets, with plenty of speed bumps. I walked to school. Currently I reside downtown, overlooking rails (the trains go quite slowly and make a noise far more agreeable than that of cars). There's a market under the rails, fruit vegtables and other foodstuffs at daytime, sm…

Space. Your own greenspace. I live in the country now and it's even more remote, but when I lived in the 'burbs it was on a 1/2 acre lot behind a nature preserve. I could look out my living room windows and not see anything but trees -- not a neighbor in sight. My kid could climb trees, look for frogs, go "treasure hunting" all day long. The dogs could go outside without needing to be leashed, or walked. And we could…

This is indeed why I live in the country. I don't have kids, so I guess I should focus more on yard sex :p Me and my wife love the quiet, the the privacy. I grew up on the farm next door so I guess that isn't all that suprising though...

Re: The Great Cul-De-Sac Problem And How To Alleviate It.

#66
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife taught at a 80% Hispanic majority high school in Dallas in the 90s. The gang violence on white kids thing just didn't happen there. Gangs, yes. Gang violence, no.

Did you send your kids there?

No. My kids were not high school age at the time, and we didn't live in the area for that high school.

I would have had no qualms about it, if it were otherwise.

Re: The Great Cul-De-Sac Problem And How To Alleviate It.

#67

For some reason this link is forwarding to http://127.0.0.1/2011/10/the-great-cul-de-sac-problem-and-ho... . Any clue why, or how to fix it?

Just stepped into this thread and I thought that was the cul-de-sac: pointing back to 127.0.0.1. Would have made somewhat sense. :-D

Re: The Great Cul-De-Sac Problem And How To Alleviate It.

#68
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you/we trying to force density when it's so obvious that most people want the exact opposite? The problem is that the playing field isn't level: as Edward Glaeser points out in his book, The Triumph of the City (highly recommended; http://www.amazon.com/Triumph-City-Greatest-Invention-Health... ), there are numerous institutional barriers to urban living, including, in no particular order: 1) Mortgage interes…

> It's pretty obvious that a lot of people want density Yes, but folks living in suburbs don't stop folks who like density from having it. It's interesting that suburb dwellers never complain about other people's living choices. It's always the city fans who can't tolerate folks who want something else. BTW - If you want high-density housing, you're going to have shared walls. It's unclear why you blame suburbs for t…

All things are not created equal. The single most environmentally friendly place to live in the US is downtown New York City. Yet we still feel the need to subsidize single family dwellings though a wide range of tax breaks and subsidies.

Re: The Great Cul-De-Sac Problem And How To Alleviate It.

#69
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never lived in a cul-de-sac (which btw is french for a dead-end street), but spent my childhood playing outside all the same. Narrow, one-way streets, with plenty of speed bumps. I walked to school. Currently I reside downtown, overlooking rails (the trains go quite slowly and make a noise far more agreeable than that of cars). There's a market under the rails, fruit vegtables and other foodstuffs at daytime, sm…

I will never understand the attraction of suburbs Low taxes. Lower cost of living. Privacy of a detached house. The lack of 'city' noise. Letting my kids play in the yard, on sidewalks. Letting my kids tear around the cul-de-sac. I've lived in the country, I've lived in the city, I've lived in the 'burbs. I prefer the latter, now. Maybe it's just me. I live in a smaller town, my commute is a five minute drive. YMMV.

Are taxes lower in the suburbs of most American cities?

I thought they'd be higher due to lower densities (more roads, sewer pipes, etc per capita to maintain). At least that's the case here in the Greater Toronto area ...

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