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Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

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Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#261

Post by _djo_ »

ceejayoz wrote: post #219
belter wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would seem Russia has more than 300 of these incidents just in 2019. "NATO says Russian aircraft violated European airspace nearly 300 times in 2019" https://taskandpurpose.com/news/russian-aircraft-violate-eur... However I cannot recall any incidents of the type: "French Mirages violate Russian Airspace" "Swedish Grippens's buzz Russian Cruiser..." or "UK Jets cross into Russian airspace" Not saying they do not h…

> Not saying they do not happen, just that I can't recall any. Do you have some examples? The U-2 and SR-71 flew deep into Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_U-2_incident We repeatedly enter Russia's ADIZ ( https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/26/politics/russian-fighter-jets... ) and China's ( https://breakingdefense.com/2013/11/chinas-new-defense-zone-... ) and explicitly do not acknowledge other nations' ADIZs for…

The reports described above are almost all violations of actual territorial airspace, not ADIZs, including the recent Russian incursion into Swedish airspace. Most countries don't have an ADIZ at all, including most of Europe. In fact ADIZs have no legal foundation, and countries may not shoot down aircraft within them outside of wartime as they're still international airspace.

While Russia routinely violates the national airspace (not ADIZs) of European countries there are few to no similar cases of European (or even American) military aircraft doing the same to Russian airspace in the past 30 years. This is a very asymmetric escalation & intimidation.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#262

Post by ceejayoz »

belter wrote: post #260
ceejayoz wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You certainly don't have to go that far back. https://twitter.com/SCS_PI/status/1373886128177041410 Well inside China's ADIZ. (I'd also note the article with the headline "Russian aircraft violated European airspace nearly 300 times" actually uses "flying close to NATO airspace" in the text. Russia's doing the same thing we do - fly close, violating ADIZs, and testing responses.)

The East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone is an air defense identification zone covering most of the East China Sea...:-) to which China has no claim. Tribunal Rejects Beijing’s Claims in South China Sea https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/13/world/asia/south-china-se...

I'm not talking about that one.

I'm talking about the one labeled "ADIZ China" along the coast, seen on https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:JADIZ_and_CADIZ_and_....

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#263

Post by _djo_ »

ceejayoz wrote: post #244
belter wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are correct. But if you have to go back to the 60's and the core of the Cold War with the Soviet Union, I am going to think in the last 20 years there are not many events...

You certainly don't have to go that far back. https://twitter.com/SCS_PI/status/1373886128177041410 Well inside China's ADIZ. (I'd also note the article with the headline "Russian aircraft violated European airspace nearly 300 times" actually uses "flying close to NATO airspace" in the text. Russia's doing the same thing we do - fly close, violating ADIZs, and testing responses.)

An ADIZ has no legal basis and is just international airspace, so no country is obliged to recognise it and no country may deny entry through one.

Mixing up ADIZs with national airspace muddies the waters.

Even if a number of those 300 occurrences were 'near' NATO airspace and only a portion were actual violations, that's still far more violations of NATO airspace by Russia than there have been NATO violations of Russian airspace.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#264

Post by ceejayoz »

_djo_ wrote: post #263
ceejayoz wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You certainly don't have to go that far back. https://twitter.com/SCS_PI/status/1373886128177041410 Well inside China's ADIZ. (I'd also note the article with the headline "Russian aircraft violated European airspace nearly 300 times" actually uses "flying close to NATO airspace" in the text. Russia's doing the same thing we do - fly close, violating ADIZs, and testing responses.)

An ADIZ has no legal basis and is just international airspace, so no country is obliged to recognise it and no country may deny entry through one. Mixing up ADIZs with national airspace muddies the waters. Even if a number of those 300 occurrences were 'near' NATO airspace and only a portion were actual violations, that's still far more violations of NATO airspace by Russia than there have been NATO violations of Rus…

> Mixing up ADIZs with national airspace muddies the waters.

Yes, I know. That's what I think the article is doing.

The same happens on coverage of China and Taiwan - the incursions always wind up just being going into the ADIZ (and Taiwan's ADIZ extends over mainland China, for extra complexity), but are breathlessly covered as if China's breaking the 12 mile limit.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#265

Post by _djo_ »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #86
_ph_ wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Afghanistan was bad, but they were almost forgiven internationally, especially as one could pretend "that was the Sovjet Union". But with the invasion of the Ukraine, that is all washed away, Russia is as ugly as the old SU.

So far, the only major power who hasn't (yet) invaded Afghanistan is China. And I don't recall anyone invading it legally .

The US & allied invasion of Afghanistan after 9/11 is a pretty non-controversial case of legitimate self defence amongst international law scholars. There are some contrarians who dispute it, but it's not a mainstream view.

That's quite different from the 2003 invasion of Iraq which was on much shakier grounds.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#266

Post by _djo_ »

ceejayoz wrote: post #264
_djo_ wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An ADIZ has no legal basis and is just international airspace, so no country is obliged to recognise it and no country may deny entry through one. Mixing up ADIZs with national airspace muddies the waters. Even if a number of those 300 occurrences were 'near' NATO airspace and only a portion were actual violations, that's still far more violations of NATO airspace by Russia than there have been NATO violations of Rus…

> Mixing up ADIZs with national airspace muddies the waters. Yes, I know. That's what I think the article is doing. The same happens on coverage of China and Taiwan - the incursions always wind up just being going into the ADIZ (and Taiwan's ADIZ extends over mainland China, for extra complexity), but are breathlessly covered as if China's breaking the 12 mile limit.

As I said, most European countries don't have an ADIZ, and a number of those reported cases are of actual violations of national airspace. Not ADIZs.

I agree that media reports that mistake the Taiwanese ADIZ for airspace are wrong and should be strongly criticised, but you're wrong to assume the same context is true for Russia and Europe.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#267

Post by ceejayoz »

_djo_ wrote: post #266
ceejayoz wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mixing up ADIZs with national airspace muddies the waters. Yes, I know. That's what I think the article is doing. The same happens on coverage of China and Taiwan - the incursions always wind up just being going into the ADIZ (and Taiwan's ADIZ extends over mainland China, for extra complexity), but are breathlessly covered as if China's breaking the 12 mile limit.

As I said, most European countries don't have an ADIZ, and a number of those reported cases are of actual violations of national airspace. Not ADIZs. I agree that media reports that mistake the Taiwanese ADIZ for airspace are wrong and should be strongly criticised, but you're wrong to assume the same context is true for Russia and Europe.

> As I said, most European countries don't have an ADIZ, and a number of those reported cases are of actual violations of national airspace. Not ADIZs.

Articles should distinguish between them, then. A headline of "Russian aircraft violated European airspace nearly 300 times" with "flying close to NATO airspace" in the actual copy is irresponsible journalism.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#268

Post by okamiueru »

eternalban wrote: post #256
okamiueru wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean. By all means, explain further what is meant by "death blow", and how that somehow applies to the currency used by the global market. The rest of the world will be able to trade just fine, as far as currency exchange is concerned. The only issue is for those who have halved their buying power. The the rest of the world clearly disagrees with your assessment, as if they did not, it would be reflected in the eva…

What it doesn't mean is a "collapse", which is how you are framing it. It won't be overnight. I assume you are a fellow geek so picture moving a huge infrastructure off of AWS and/or going "multi-cloud". It's not a switch that you flip and definitely not something upper management would want unless AWS keeps crashing and its fabled SLAs don't hold up. Assurances. Entire supply chains (and everything that goes to make…

"unless Russia collapses first". Yes, that is the very likely outcome indeed.

You are aware that the GDP of Russia is less than that of several individual European countries? And I mean individual. Germany alone has twice the GDP. You are woefully overestimating the Russian economy in the first place.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#269

Post by _djo_ »

ceejayoz wrote: post #267
_djo_ wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said, most European countries don't have an ADIZ, and a number of those reported cases are of actual violations of national airspace. Not ADIZs. I agree that media reports that mistake the Taiwanese ADIZ for airspace are wrong and should be strongly criticised, but you're wrong to assume the same context is true for Russia and Europe.

> As I said, most European countries don't have an ADIZ, and a number of those reported cases are of actual violations of national airspace. Not ADIZs. Articles should distinguish between them, then. A headline of "Russian aircraft violated European airspace nearly 300 times" with "flying close to NATO airspace" in the actual copy is irresponsible journalism.

That may be so, but it wasn’t the question the OP asked, which was about whether NATO was doing to Russian airspace what Russia has so often done to NATO airspace.

In your response you wrongly asserted that was the case and you did so by confusing ADIZs with airspace.

It’s not a terrible failing to be mistaken, but refusing to acknowledge an error is the wrong approach.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#270

Post by belter »

ceejayoz wrote: post #267
_djo_ wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said, most European countries don't have an ADIZ, and a number of those reported cases are of actual violations of national airspace. Not ADIZs. I agree that media reports that mistake the Taiwanese ADIZ for airspace are wrong and should be strongly criticised, but you're wrong to assume the same context is true for Russia and Europe.

> As I said, most European countries don't have an ADIZ, and a number of those reported cases are of actual violations of national airspace. Not ADIZs. Articles should distinguish between them, then. A headline of "Russian aircraft violated European airspace nearly 300 times" with "flying close to NATO airspace" in the actual copy is irresponsible journalism.

The imprecision's of some journalist's pale, comparing to the irresponsible behaviours that endager the security of others. Can you imagine any European country doing actions like:

"Tactics typically deployed by Russian pilots include a practice of deliberately failing to report flight plans, ignoring civilian air traffic controllers and switching off their on-board transponders that NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg refers to as "flying dark" an approach which he said was inherently unsafe and poses a serious risk to civilian air traffic."

"Russia has long history of airspace violations" https://www.aa.com.tr/en/politics/russia-has-long-history-of...

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