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Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

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Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#251

Post by cf141q5325 »

xdennis wrote: post #246
cf141q5325 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what else is the goal? How many dead Ukrainians to achieve which goal in which way? Please be specific edit: I get that this sound snarky, but it will hopefully drive home the point. Unless you have a 3rd alternative to agreeing what ever the man with the nukes understands under "demilitarization and denazification" and joining a death cult with mandatory membership i dont really get what i can tell you.

> How many dead Ukrainians to achieve which goal in which way? Russians, not Ukrainians. Ukrainians will defend their country and the Russians won't have the stomach for a prolonged insurgency, just like in Afghanistan. Afghanistan led to the fall of the USSR, and Ukraine will now lead to the fall and breakup of Russia.

A prolonged insurgency needs Ukrainians there to fight. That is something Russia can fix.

What ever solution you propose will have a cost in Ukrainian lives and that cost is largely determined with what Russia is willing to do. With their ruthlessness reducing their casualties massively.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#252

Post by xdennis »

hef19898 wrote: post #40
rado wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SkyNews literally just said, "We are used to wars far away, but now the refugees are at our shores." Let that sink in.

Well, more at our land borders. Europe didn't give a rats ass about the refugees at the actual shores before. Ignoring my inner cynic, it is good that we, the European countries, help Ukraine and the Ukrainian refugees, very good. But yes, I think the West is very much used to start wars in far away countries where we can ignore the consequences in our daily lives. Now someone else started it, close to our homes, and…

> Europe didn't give a rats ass about the refugees at the actual shores before.

Europe took in millions of refugees from a different continent.

Syrian/Afghan refugees took a longer route to Europe instead of Saudi Arabia. That's what an economic migrant does.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#253

Post by alkonaut »

usrme wrote: post #25

I really wish Putin would give a long and hard think over the letter[1] that Nikita Khrushchev sent to John F. Kennedy during the Cuban Missile Crisis. An excerpt: "If, however, you have not lost your self-control and sensibly conceive what this might lead to, then, Mr. President, *we and you ought not now to pull on the ends of the rope in which you have tied the knot of war, because the more the two of us pull, the…

The difference back then appears to be that while there were different philosophies (e.g.capitalist vs socialist) neither saw the existence of the other as an existential threat other than through war.

Putin (And perhaps more Dugin or other Orthodox "influencers") now seem to think that the mere existence of a liberal ukraine (say, Gay parades in Kyiev) is an existential threat, regardless of whether it would ever spread to Russia proper.

That changes the balance between a "them" and "us". To Putin this means there can be no status Quo. The russian Empire can't be humiliated by having a liberal /"westernized" part that also happens to be a historical cradle of Russian culture.

If the premise of Russia(n leadership) is that it's better that there is no world at all than a world where Russia isn't an traditionalist empire including Ukraine, then the situation is MUCH harder to defuse than anything during the Cold War.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#254

Post by alkonaut »

MrRiddle wrote: post #128
cf141q5325 wrote: post #116

Well yes. Artillery bombardment is THE Russian military doctrine. Any uncertainty on the headline would mean assuming Russia had developed some unusual qualms on the subject. And why would they? It seems to me that among the moral outrage people kind of lost touch with reality. There is some basic facts, take it here from the German public broadcast >According to its president, Russia is seeking the "denazification"…

Exactly, on /r/europe I suggested exactly this would happen and how Ukrainian government should sign the deal while they still have some leverage left. I got banned from it for life because of it.

Kyiv should sign the agreement of not joining NATO, since it can now keep it's leadership and prevent decapitation occupation. Sign whatever makes Russia happy and have them leave. Then rebuild the city. Then pack the country completely full of millions of Western troops and material. Then join NATO. If Russia thinks the violation of the agreement is worth starting a global war over, let them shoot first.

Show russia what an agreement is worth, when they say "humanitarian corridors are opened" followed by bombing them.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#255

Post by cf141q5325 »

happytoexplain wrote: post #231
cf141q5325 wrote: post #116

Well yes. Artillery bombardment is THE Russian military doctrine. Any uncertainty on the headline would mean assuming Russia had developed some unusual qualms on the subject. And why would they? It seems to me that among the moral outrage people kind of lost touch with reality. There is some basic facts, take it here from the German public broadcast >According to its president, Russia is seeking the "denazification"…

You're phrasing implies that outrage is somehow naive, or that outrage is somehow mutually exclusive with realistic expectations, but I'm not sure why.

Thanks for the heads up. You are the second one who assumed that, its the missing "some" right?

>It seems to me that among the moral outrage people kind of lost touch with reality.

I tried to convey that it seems to me that some people, some willfully some in an emotional tailspin some simply distracted, care more about the story then its implications in reality.

edit: Meaning that while it isnt mutually exclusive, it seems to be the reason some people do it. Which isnt surprising since its an emotional reaction that requires effort and the will to keep out of a rational consideration. Its a behavior i keep noticing but havent found a good description for yet. Sorry for the confusion.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#256

Post by xdennis »

curiousgal wrote: post #33
shmageggy wrote: post #5

It's so incredibly sad to see this playing out exactly as many predicted and being unable to stop it (due to the threat of nuclear war). It's like standing on a train track and seeing an oncoming train miles away and yet being unable to move. So many (more) Ukrainians are about to die or suffer horribly, and much of the physical history and cultural artifacts of that city will be destroyed.

This is genuinely not an attempt at flamewar but why can't civilians just leave? Russia is obviously going to win. It's the same with Palestenians, they obviously have not and will not win against Israel. The logical thing to do is to leave, suffer but be sure that your kids will have it better. But I reckon this isn't about logic?

> Russia is obviously going to win.

It's not. It's going to be a repeat of Afghanistan for them.

> The logical thing to do is to leave

That's logical only for a coward. Many people won't give in to a bully, especially when they're winning. (Independent sources are saying 5800 dead orcs on 3 March. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukrai... )

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#257

Post by xdennis »

vkou wrote: post #203
MichaelRazum wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to call out this. This is clearly wrong. Every Israeli citizen is allowed to vote. That is a fact. I don't know where you get your facts.

> Every Israeli citizen is allowed to vote. The rhetorical sleight-of-hand that you are obscuring is that most Arabs living in Israel are not, and will never be allowed to become Israeli citizens. This is despite both being born, and living on a territory that is very clearly under the military control of the Knesset. It's either an indeterminate military occupation, or its apartheid. I don't care what you want to ca…

You can't give citizenship to people who want to destroy your country.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#258

Post by xdennis »

vogre wrote: post #168
lmm wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What "expansion of the west"? Estonia et al joined NATO of their own accord, and if sovereignty means anything then they had the right to. (You could certainly make a case about Iraq or Afghanistan, where the west did install a new government by force, but I don't think Russia has been talking about those) > The West thinks the Ukrainian invasion is the first move of any party, and its done nothing this whole time Ha…

> What has "the west" done that's remotely comparable to Crimea or South Ossetia? by the way West destroyed Iraq, there is a hell now. West destroyed Lybia, there is a hell now. West destroyed Afghanistan, there is a hell now. West destroyed Serbia, ask Serbians, what do they think of NATO There is peace in Crimea, there is a peace in South Ossetia. Nobody is shooting. The life is poor, mostly because of the west san…

* The west didn't annex any of those (except for Kosovo).

* Libya was given a no fight zone at the request of the people. It was a mistake, but the intentions were noble.

* Afghanistan started as a fair war. They gave aid to people who attacked a NATO country. It was completely fair to invade. Trying to nation-build it was a mistake though. But again, noble.

* Intervening on the side of the muslim terrorists in Kosovo was a mistake and some people in NATO (like us Romanians) opposed it (although our government supported it).

* The Russian occupied areas are hell holes. Transnistria is literally soviet.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#259

Post by [deleted] »

shmageggy wrote: post #5

It's so incredibly sad to see this playing out exactly as many predicted and being unable to stop it (due to the threat of nuclear war). It's like standing on a train track and seeing an oncoming train miles away and yet being unable to move. So many (more) Ukrainians are about to die or suffer horribly, and much of the physical history and cultural artifacts of that city will be destroyed.

[deleted]

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#260

Post by xdennis »

vogre wrote: post #159
lmm wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What "expansion of the west"? Estonia et al joined NATO of their own accord, and if sovereignty means anything then they had the right to. (You could certainly make a case about Iraq or Afghanistan, where the west did install a new government by force, but I don't think Russia has been talking about those) > The West thinks the Ukrainian invasion is the first move of any party, and its done nothing this whole time Ha…

> What has "the west" done that's remotely comparable to Crimea or South Ossetia? Lead the pro-NATO coup in the closest Russia's neighbourgs, armed these countries with heavy weapons, encouraged them to fight Russia and promised to support this fight, then leave and watch Russians and Ukrainians kill each other at the expense of Europe. It didn't started in 2022 or 2014, it escalated for the last 30 years.

> Lead the pro-NATO coup in the closest Russia's neighbourgs

The Revolution of Dignity was about removing the Russian puppet. It was let by the people, who opposed orc control.

> armed these countries with heavy weapons

Friends help each other like that.

> encouraged them to fight Russia

As every sovereign nation should on their land.

> and promised to support this fight

Source.

> then leave

What NATO soldiers were there to leave?

> and watch Russians and Ukrainians kill each other at the expense of Europe.

Disgusting point of view. Russians attacked! What were the Ukrainians supposed to do? Surrender to people who want them killed?

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