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Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

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Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#771
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everywhere I've seen anyone motivate restrictions on Russian citizens it's been about pushing them to revolt against their government, not about punishing. I don't know whether it makes sense, but it does seem like one of few avenues to try to get rid of putin that has low chance of resulting in atomic war.

Didn't see any revolting Americans when the Iraq War was initiated.

While the protests to a large extent took place outside of America, the Feb 15, 2003 protest against the Iraq War was the largest protest ever at the time. The protests were certainly more enthusiastic and open than what we see in Russia, you can speculate on the reasons why.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#772
I am one of these Russians. Or should I say I was, because just moments ago Visa and Mastercard stopped all operations in Russia, and this essentially left us without any money except the (meagre) cash we could withdraw back in Russia.

It really feels the trap is closing in around me right now.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#773
post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I understand correctly, you are fine with broad economic sanctions on everyday Russians, most of whom are already poor especially after the collapse of the Ruble - and who frankly don’t have as much say over their authoritarian governments as American or German citizens who enjoy living in liberal democracies. At the same time you excuse rich countries such as the US or Germany who actively choose to continue to b…

> simply because buying oil elsewhere would be expensive and politically inconvenient. Like I mentioned in the previous post, the main reason is to keep some leverage. It's the biggest financial sanction that can be thrown at them. Essentially all other sanctions were taken, but the last one was kept unused. If Putin escalates against civilians this sanction would likely be used too.

I’ve read elsewhere that the economic costs would be significant and elected leaders in the west find it politically untenable and would be fearful of being voted out of office if gas priced explode.

I would like to believe our elected leaders are not so self-serving as to put their political interests above the needs of the Ukrainian people but I’ve seen enough geo—politics in my life that I simply can’t be so naiive.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#774

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It originated as a consequence of a burgeoning free media environment due to the proliferation of smart phones and the internet. The younger generations, with their higher level of fluid intelligence, are able to approach things with better critical thinking and navigating the complexities of the internet world. The older generations aren't able to adapt and are sitting ducks for being easily manipulated by technolog…

Young people can absolutely be manipulated, it’s probably even easier than with older people due to lack of experience. However, the thing that works in younger peoples favour is they are less isolated. Generally people are very social when young and then as life and routine sets in they stop socialising as much and when they do it’s usually with the same people. Isolated people don’t have the personal experience to…

I got to stay at home with my parents through the pandemic and watched them become increasingly old and misled in real time as they attached themselves to the US alt-conservative news, called the mainstream sources "fake", but still watched both, one in adoration and the other out of spite. This trend was evident before, but simply accelerated by the fact that they were not out in the world in any real sense as an actor engaging with specific consequences. They used to participate a little bit in comments threads on the local paper, posting cherry picked sources for their views with the assertion "I'm just providing information". Then the comments section closed down, so they stopped. Now they just spend two or three hours of each day rabidly agreeing with each other that the world is insane and someone or some conspiracy is to blame. Any suggestion that they should try to disengage a little is met with the justifications of addiction.

But I have an aunt who is slightly older and rebuffs attempts to broach political discussion. And she is, so far as I can tell, stable and content with things, even after the passing of her husband. I recall visiting when I was young and the husband carefully managing the TV remote to mute commercials - there was a definite control over exposure and conscious decisions about faith that my own parents would never attempt and only enacted on us children haphazardly.

With people of roughly my generation, I can see the long-term indoctrination creeping up as they settle into careers. It comes and goes more easily early in life, for sure. By eighteen you're molded roughly into whatever society said you should be, and the onset of that is precisely the thing that makes so many teens commit suicide, and so many others foot soldiers to some ideology. But afterwards things become a little more self-inflicted, built off subconscious voices trying to justify how you ended up where you are. Many people do make a break away into "standing for something" that can take them away from the political sphere and engage with life in a more concrete way like my aunt. The terrified, reactionary elderly, I think, never got there, and ended up in a place where they have no pursuits or rules of conduct that would ground them and make them reconsider their concerns about new information. Once you're attached to bad ideas and you have a media source to reinforce them, all your energy starts going to their defense and you have nothing left for yourself - you just hate everything all day and your personal decline only motivates going deeper and rejecting friends and family; additional socialization by itself doesn't do it, it leads to "drama at the dinner table" as the entire conversation is pulled towards their topics of choice; every word out of their mouth inevitably leads back to their attachments. It's really on society to cut off the supply and deescalate, but for now, the war continues, I suppose.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#775
post #632
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like you are conveniently skipping the part where millions of ordinary Russians are being economically devastated by broad brush sanctions that punish the poor and middle class Russians who are innocent of war crimes, simply because they were unfortunate to be born in the wrong country and they may justifiably be afraid for their lives if they protest. For those who say beat the war drums, punish them all, jus…

Life isn't good under an incompetent government that doesn't care for its citizens, simple as that. It's not the responsibility of US, EU or anyone else to lessen that pain. Putin could have easily avoided the sanctions, he didn't. Avoiding the sanctions would not have required any particular skill or qualification. If instead of Putin a dog were president, the sanctions would not have happened. Bad luck for those wh…

Why do you conflate Putin with the Russian people?

Sanctioning oil and gas would end a direct war subsidy to Putin. Broad sanctions against the people of Russia don’t do nearly as much to stop the war as simply not buying petroleum-chemicals to fund Putin’s war chest.

The Russian people are no more to blame here than Republicans who voted for George W Bush before he waged a war of aggression and killed 500k Iraqis based on a lie about WMD.

In fact, the Russian people are less responsible than those Republicans since the US is supposed to be a democracy and Americans still have fair elections to vote unpopular candidates out.

The only crime of the Russian people is the accident of being born inside her arbitrary borders.

We should stop dehumanizing and punishing an entire population for the unconscionable actions of their authoritarian leader.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember getting completely shut down by my American friends when I told them about atrocities committed by US soldiers and that Saddam had no nuclear weapons. It was like talking to a wall at the time. You don't understand - we are fighting this war for the world's safety, blah-blah. Maybe the next US war will be different ? I doubt it. US propaganda makes Russian propaganda look like amateur hour. Stuff that does…

Yep, and EU is no better... they even banned RT... imagine banning CNN when USA attacked afghanistan. But this is the start of the war, and there is A LOT of propaganda everywhere... everyone in the west is trying to show russia as losing everywhere, while they're conquering basically everything, on the other hand, they say that russians have destroyed whole cities, and only two short clips of the same building are s…

At the time of the Iraq War I thought US mainstream media were nothing more than bloodthirsty warmongers, liars, and dogs of the state [1]. I still hold a grudge against them TWO DECADES later for the lies and war propaganda they spread during this time.

I mean I'm ultimately against banning media, I linked to RT a few days ago to make a point about the propaganda they spread, back at the time of the Iraq War I was a huge Jon Stewart fan and watched him every night just crap on that bad ol' media using clips from the media and you can't really do that effectively while banning that same media. However, I've got to say, I don't think banning American Media in the early Bush era would have been a preposterous idea. I mean at the end of the day the US media succeeded in selling that war to the "coalition of the willing". US war propaganda is probably more dangerous than Russian war propaganda because it's more sophisticated in the way it manufactures consent and has this veneer of journalistic freedom.

[1] A wiki article that summarizes popular criticisms of US media from this time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_coverage_of_the_Iraq_War

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#777
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like you are conveniently skipping the part where millions of ordinary Russians are being economically devastated by broad brush sanctions that punish the poor and middle class Russians who are innocent of war crimes, simply because they were unfortunate to be born in the wrong country and they may justifiably be afraid for their lives if they protest. For those who say beat the war drums, punish them all, jus…

I support sanctions precisely because I wouldn’t want to volunteer for any militia, and am therefore not prepared to ask others to do the same. If the options on the table are a) do nothing, b) launch a military counter-offensive which could lead to use of nuclear weapons and/or a cyber-war with as-yet unknown (but certainly devastating) consequences, or c) use economic measures to deprive Putin of the tax base he ne…

You forgot

D) stop directly subsidizing Putin’s war machine by buying Russia’s oil & gas.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#779
post #777

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support sanctions precisely because I wouldn’t want to volunteer for any militia, and am therefore not prepared to ask others to do the same. If the options on the table are a) do nothing, b) launch a military counter-offensive which could lead to use of nuclear weapons and/or a cyber-war with as-yet unknown (but certainly devastating) consequences, or c) use economic measures to deprive Putin of the tax base he ne…

You forgot D) stop directly subsidizing Putin’s war machine by buying Russia’s oil & gas.

I didn't forget it. I believe that's a sub-strategy of C.

That said, even if you believe your suggestion is separate from mine, there's nothing to preclude choosing both C and D.

If solely focusing on Russia's oil exports isn't enough to get the job done, we need to apply economic sanctions across a broader section of Russia's economy, if we're going to act at all.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#780

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a lot of people seem ok with punishing Russian individuals for the actions of the government. Its easy to say that but you have to look at the bigger picture. It's easy to say "just punish the government / the oligarchs", but as most Westerners know, these people have become extraordinarily adept at hiding their money and distributing their assets. So it is very difficult indeed to target them per-se, hence you nee…

> Nobody wants World War 3. Small point but this isn't exactly true, especially among US policymakers and media people. All you need to do here is read the chorus of people in official / corporate media going "nuclear war would be bad, but [...]". You can also rewind to the enormous shit-fit Washington types threw last summer when Biden pulled out of Afghanistan, or go even further back to the Iraq war. Washington is…

The kind of people you describe thrive on the looming threat of world war, but I highly doubt they actually want it to occur. They can get perfectly fat of government money during peace time as they saber rattle.
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