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Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

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Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#511

Post by 5e92cb50239222b »

rectang wrote: post #504
tartoran wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That polarising effect on older generations versus younger ones is something that has affected a large part of the world and I’d be curios to know whether it originated by one source or it simply emerged as a trend. First time I heard about troll farms was something brewed in Russia but it certainly spread around by then

I would expect there to be a divide between Russians who were old enough to experience the full effect of the chaos and privation following the dissolution of the Soviet Union in the 1990s, and those who came of age later. In the US, where I live, we also have tension between the generations, but it has more to do with changing demographics. There's nothing comparable to what Russians experienced when the Soviet Unio…

Yeah, that's exactly what Putin built his whole career out of. It's mostly a myth (because the country was helped out of its troubles by high oil prices), and it's especially ironic now that the same person is pushing the country back into the 90s at full speed.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#512

Post by artificial »

maybelsyrup wrote: post #356
traceroute66 wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a lot of people seem ok with punishing Russian individuals for the actions of the government. Its easy to say that but you have to look at the bigger picture. It's easy to say "just punish the government / the oligarchs", but as most Westerners know, these people have become extraordinarily adept at hiding their money and distributing their assets. So it is very difficult indeed to target them per-se, hence you nee…

> Nobody wants World War 3. Small point but this isn't exactly true, especially among US policymakers and media people. All you need to do here is read the chorus of people in official / corporate media going "nuclear war would be bad, but [...]". You can also rewind to the enormous shit-fit Washington types threw last summer when Biden pulled out of Afghanistan, or go even further back to the Iraq war. Washington is…

Lots of NGOs and bad actors. Speaking of which looks at this post by Edward Norton! [0] as far as strategies scope this paper by the Rand Corporation from 2019 discussing what looks like a lot of policies already in place. Banning Russia from international institutions, strategies such as providing lethal aid to Ukraine, destabilizing neighboring country Belarus, PysOps to damage internal credibility. [1]

[0] https://twitter.com/edwardnorton/status/1498025965875875844?... [1] https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB10014.html

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#513

Post by opportune »

axg11 wrote: post #243
optimalonpaper wrote: post #192

No one thinks that a regular Ivan from some russian city (on his own) is responsible for the war and should suffer. And I see how you could (and probably should, at some level) feel sorry for russians fleeing the country. But this is the only way to tell them that they -- collective Ivans, Russian society as a whole -- should stand up and act: they should articulate their content, they should protest against putin's…

I see both sides to this. Yes, Russians should protest against the horrible actions of their government. On the other hand, if you’re an average Russian with few/no international ties, would you really risk protesting against a government with a demonstrated track record of murdering dissidents and imprisoning protestors? NATO/the West is choosing to worsen the lives of 144 million Russian citizens due to the actions…

Yeah, it’s unreasonable to expect everybody in a corrupt regime to sacrifice their life to stop it. At least Russia is not stopping them from leaving.

These Russians leaving their country is still a “vote with your feet” type of play. It hurts the regime of Russia to have professionals leave, especially since the people who leave are more likely to be more skilled. It’s better than doing nothing at all.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#514

Post by T-A »

therusskiy wrote: post #6

I managed to escape the country yesterday, had to flight to Egypt of all places, because ALL (even business) tickets were sold out. The recent news is that starting March 6 all international flights are suspended, the trap has closed. The disheartening thing is that even if you never supported Putin, other countries treat you as enemy. I am at Georgia now and banks refuse to open bank accounts to Russians, and I need…

In 2014, after I’d just emigrated from Russia because of my opposition to the Crimea annexation, I bristled when Ukrainians told me the move didn’t erase my responsibility. I was sure I couldn’t have done anything to change the nature of the Russian regime. “You go fight Putin,” I snarled back at my Ukrainian accusers. “See where you get with that.” It fills me with shame to remember that now, because of course they are fighting him as I write this — and we didn’t really do so even when it wasn’t as dangerous as in the current climate of cruel suppression.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-03-05/ukrain...

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#515

Post by optimalonpaper »

axg11 wrote: post #243
optimalonpaper wrote: post #192

No one thinks that a regular Ivan from some russian city (on his own) is responsible for the war and should suffer. And I see how you could (and probably should, at some level) feel sorry for russians fleeing the country. But this is the only way to tell them that they -- collective Ivans, Russian society as a whole -- should stand up and act: they should articulate their content, they should protest against putin's…

I see both sides to this. Yes, Russians should protest against the horrible actions of their government. On the other hand, if you’re an average Russian with few/no international ties, would you really risk protesting against a government with a demonstrated track record of murdering dissidents and imprisoning protestors? NATO/the West is choosing to worsen the lives of 144 million Russian citizens due to the actions…

> if you’re an average Russian with few/no international ties, would you really risk protesting against a government with a demonstrated track record of murdering dissidents and imprisoning protestors?

I think one has to decide what's important for them -- if I think that my participation in collective action (protest) could somehow prevent or stop killing of other people, then I think I would try at least (and if I knew there were other people who I can rely on, who share the same feelings that I have). In this case, if nothing changes, at least I know I did all I could, but if it works (in best case scenario), then the war is over. Worth risking right?

This is how the Revolution of Dignity happened in Ukraine: you just knew you had to act -- and act as a group not as an individual -- when the president you elected have failed your nation (and before running away he also proposed fines and imprisonment for those who took part in protests, so there were risks obviously).

> I don’t disagree with the sanctions but we also shouldn’t pretend that it is a just or fair course of action. Sanctions are the best tool that we have, out of a selection of poor tools.

Completely agree

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#516

Post by lowkey »

sharpneli wrote: post #478
lowkey wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile the White House Press secretary, yesterday, defended the US decision to continue buying Russian oil. Since the US is also directly funding the Russian’s ability to wage war in Ukraine, would you advocate for the US and other Western countries who continue to buy Russian Oil to sanction themselves?

Germany also buys Russian gas. It's basically the last thing Russia has to lose anymore. If they escalate the conflict even more (by even more brutally bombing civilians) I'd be surprised if energy was not part of the sanctions. In essence it is to maintain some leverage, on top of the usual practical and selfish reasons. In addition Americans are notoriously sensitive to the price of gas (in a similar vein the joke…

If I understand correctly, you are fine with broad economic sanctions on everyday Russians, most of whom are already poor especially after the collapse of the Ruble - and who frankly don’t have as much say over their authoritarian governments as American or German citizens who enjoy living in liberal democracies.

At the same time you excuse rich countries such as the US or Germany who actively choose to continue to buy oil from authoritarian regimes even as they invade our allies - simply because buying oil elsewhere would be expensive and politically inconvenient.

I don’t understand your logic.

Remember, the sanctions against average Russians will absolutely result in shortages of food, medicine and other essential supplies. Many everyday Russians will likely starve or die from these sanctions. This isn’t about how quickly they can replace their old iPhones.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#517

Post by pelasaco »

Lio wrote: post #331
pelasaco wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * Handicap Russia's ability to wage war. This includes eliminating their ability to buy supplies and destroying their morale. But if we still fear the atomic war, he can still threatens Europe with that.

That is a legitimate worry but there’s no counter to it other than reminding Putin that a nuclear attack would cause a massive automated, nuclear counter attack that would destroy him too. There’s no defence against submarine based warheads; enough will get through. It’s the reason that NATO isn’t going establish a no fly zone over Ukraine. They know it too.

At this point, what do you think that Putin has to loose?

The guy is 70 years old. An old, lonely, bitter man. His wife left him in 2013 and his kids are far away from him. All his Wealth is blocked, he will never be able to enjoy his life outside of his little empire. He has nothing to loose.

He could choose the bunker, but maybe he decides to bring the whole world with him. And if he decided already, nothing that we do, will make him happy. We are just deciding to die without even a fight.

The song that describes Putin right now:

"I am alone, this bitter man that I've become Hold my breath, laid to rest Drown in my tears, there's nothing left of me I am alone, the angry man upon his throne I can't pretend, the great descent Take my hand until the end You see me on the horizon I am the air you breathe I sold my soul to the seven seas Condemned and lost, pulled off course I will never leave, I'm always yours"

Any given day - Bitter Man

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#518

Post by Etherlord87 »

akomtu wrote: post #82
bsedlm wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a lot of people seem ok with punishing Russian individuals for the actions of the government. maybe these people have grown in better functioning democracies (unlike Russia or my own country) so they act as if the people were well represented by their governments; unlike reality for most countries with a serious corruption problem.

I have another explanation for this. Most people, even the decent ones, get an uncontrollable build-up of anger when they learn about the war, and they have a need to release this anger somehow. This need is like the need to pee: it won't go away by itself. These people rightfully realise that "peeing" at the true offenders - the putin's gang - isn't an option, so they turn to easy targets, I mean the average russian…

By peeing do you mean sanctions or just hostility towards russians?

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#519

Post by throwaway_4ever »

BbzzbB wrote: post #439
BossingAround wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't support Russia, but I can see why they want Ukraine, a country that is in their borders, to stay in their orbit. This is a complete red herring. They don't want Ukraine to "stay in their orbit," they are colonizers that are fighting against Ukraine's independence. Putin said he doesn't want Ukraine to join NATO. Nobody in NATO is eager to accept Ukraine. Ukraine said they'd stay independent. Now, Putin is s…

I find it weird this idea that Putin was so scared of Ukraine joining NATO because he fears some NATO aggression. By now the most likely objective as far as I'm concerned is that conquering formerly soviet Ukraine has always been in his mind. I could be wrong as I'm not in his head, but to me this war wasn't avoidable by assuring Ukraine's neutrality as some pundits say, at best it was delaying the invasion to the ti…

Yes, anyone believing Putin is scared of NATO offense (he just doesn't want NATO defense) has to reconcile the conflicting viewpoints that he's simultaneously scared of NATO attacking Russia but not worried about them just defending the invasion of a sovereign country, Ukraine...
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