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Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

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Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#431

Post by atlantas »

lenkite wrote: post #348
philliphaydon wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Iraq happened today I think more people would be upset and protest. In 2001 I don't even think I had a cellphone, we didnt have social media like we do now, the only source of news was the News Paper and TV. If it happened now we would be blastered on twitter with videos / photos of it happening in real time like we are know. Much more aware of war crimes happening. We can't change what happened in the past but I…

I remember getting completely shut down by my American friends when I told them about atrocities committed by US soldiers and that Saddam had no nuclear weapons. It was like talking to a wall at the time. You don't understand - we are fighting this war for the world's safety, blah-blah. Maybe the next US war will be different ? I doubt it. US propaganda makes Russian propaganda look like amateur hour. Stuff that does…

This. Dissidents would be cast as pro-Evil and purged from social media for misinformation.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#432

Post by nathanlied »

artyomxyz wrote: post #378
andrey123 wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Disclaimer: Russian] According to my estimations, probably at least 95% of people who are "against the war" do not go out to participate in protests. My estimations are based on talking to my colleagues (large IT company). Yes, starting from now, protesting becomes more risky (you may go to jail for years if you get caught second time). But just a week ago, it was mostly harmless (yes, some people get arrested for f…

In some way you’re right. But it’s important to note that we haven’t chosen this government, we haven’t chosen this country we live in. I personally lost any hope to change it one year earlier after participating in pro-Navalny protests. Now, I just don’t want to have anything in common with this government. I’m choosing another one. And I’m not going to pay taxes to Russian government anymore

I've been finding it very easy to empathise with Russians in this. After what we've seen happening in so-called "enlightened" Western democracies, with all our press freedoms, and yet we still have homeopathy advocates, far-right (and left!) conspiracies, and all kinds of gnashing of teeth over "fake news".

How can I not look at Russian society, with a far more controlled environment, and think "how can Russians not know about it? How are they so easily deceived?", well, how are -we-, in the West, so easily deceived? It cuts both ways - but at least Russians have more of an excuse.

I am hoping you and your people find kindness wherever you decide to flee to. It is already difficult enough to uproot yourself (and your family), with an uncertain future, leaving friends and memories of better days behind. We need to advocate for Ukrainian refugees - those who are fleeing Putin's war of aggression - but we cannot forget that, while Ukrainians are the worse off in this conflict, many Russians will also be victims. Many Russians will not be able to return home. And many Russians may see friends and family prosecuted for opposing Putin's war.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#433

Post by helixfelix »

Etherlord87 wrote: post #365
therusskiy wrote: post #6

I managed to escape the country yesterday, had to flight to Egypt of all places, because ALL (even business) tickets were sold out. The recent news is that starting March 6 all international flights are suspended, the trap has closed. The disheartening thing is that even if you never supported Putin, other countries treat you as enemy. I am at Georgia now and banks refuse to open bank accounts to Russians, and I need…

I am empathetic to your situation, but if you lived in Russia and paid taxes in Russia, you did support Putin. You also supported him just by living there, which was a statement that Russia is a place worth living in. Also if you didn't protest, you did support him passively. The same can be said, probably to a lesser extent, about most of us living outside of Russia - if we bought things coming from Russia or didn't…

Your comment made me do a double take. Surely an individual is not to blame for a countries injustices, imperialism, and war crimes? Otherwise large parts of the developed world would have to be abandoned immediately.

We need to consider borders, immigration, work authorization, regulations, wealth, health, friends, family responsibilities, kids, partners and their own constraints - before being able to pass judgement.

It's takes incredible privelege to propose that one can just pickup their bags and go wherever they want in the world.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#434

Post by dragonwriter »

JamesBarney wrote: post #424
axg11 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see both sides to this. Yes, Russians should protest against the horrible actions of their government. On the other hand, if you’re an average Russian with few/no international ties, would you really risk protesting against a government with a demonstrated track record of murdering dissidents and imprisoning protestors? NATO/the West is choosing to worsen the lives of 144 million Russian citizens due to the actions…

All the polls in Russia show more than half the population supports the special military operations in Russia. So it's way more than a few hundred. Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of soldiers who are literally invading Ukraine right now.

> All the polls in Russia show more than half the population supports the special military operations in Russia.

When dissent, both personal and published, is criminalized, that less than half of people will tell a stranger promising anonymity and purporting to represent a media organization that they dissent doesn't mean anything like that less than half of people actually dissent.

Opinion polling can be problematic in a liberal democracy with a strong tradition of freedom of political opinion and expression, but in regimes that aren't it is beyond problematic.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#435

Post by ipv6ipv4 »

danielodievich wrote: post #405
andrey123 wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Disclaimer: Russian] According to my estimations, probably at least 95% of people who are "against the war" do not go out to participate in protests. My estimations are based on talking to my colleagues (large IT company). Yes, starting from now, protesting becomes more risky (you may go to jail for years if you get caught second time). But just a week ago, it was mostly harmless (yes, some people get arrested for f…

I've been in touch with my family in and around Moscow. Older generation is militantly pro-Putin, as a direct result of listening to the what the TV spews. My generation is ignoring it all and is keeping their heads down because it is too dangerous to express anything. My uncle who had a green card and had an opportunity to settle here in USA couple of decades ago but chose not to is being very philosophical, and say…

Can you be more precise with which generations you are referring to? Maybe age ranges?

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#436

Post by vertis »

grujicd wrote: post #357
therusskiy wrote: post #6

I managed to escape the country yesterday, had to flight to Egypt of all places, because ALL (even business) tickets were sold out. The recent news is that starting March 6 all international flights are suspended, the trap has closed. The disheartening thing is that even if you never supported Putin, other countries treat you as enemy. I am at Georgia now and banks refuse to open bank accounts to Russians, and I need…

AFAIK Air Serbia is still flying to Russia, and even doubled number of flights few days ago because of demand. I don’t know what’s the situation with visas, how long you can stay, how it is to open bank account, etc but historically Serbia is friendly towards Russia. Government does condemn Russia for this war, but I don’t think we’ll be implementing any kind of sanctions. Elections are in a month, and noone wants to…

In a lot of ways, it's about stepping stones as well. Once out of the country and in a safe place there are more options.

I had heard that Russians were having trouble opening bank accounts in Georgia, but I can't verify that rumor. It's definitely a hard thing.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#437

Post by ithkuil »

philliphaydon wrote: post #267
lenkite wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't see any revolting Americans when the Iraq War was initiated.

If Iraq happened today I think more people would be upset and protest. In 2001 I don't even think I had a cellphone, we didnt have social media like we do now, the only source of news was the News Paper and TV. If it happened now we would be blastered on twitter with videos / photos of it happening in real time like we are know. Much more aware of war crimes happening. We can't change what happened in the past but I…

Then we shouldn't accuse the average Russian citizen of not overthrowing their own government because while they do have cellphones today they live in a country with an extremely tight grip of media. If your argument holds for 2001 america, it's the same now for Russians.

How can we let more average Russian citizens have access to real facts? It's now a crime in Russia to publish 'lies" about the Russian army. It's hard. And it's even harder because any information you manage to smuggle through is always tainted by coming from the corrupt west.

Just thinking aloud: what if the information reaching Russians does not come from the west but from other countries, all other countries, the global south, the far east? They can't be all corrupted by the west, can they?

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#438

Post by sharpneli »

dan-robertson wrote: post #395
sharpneli wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tax income produced by those people is being used to fund the war. It is unfortunate but it's better to have a person become poor than another person being bombed. Ín a world without nukes they would be bombed too right now, because wars have a tendency of doing that regardless of who fights.

I think a counter argument is that these measures allow the situation to be described in Russia as a ‘west vs Russia’ situation which lines up well with media narratives people have been hearing for years rather than a ‘Russian army sent to kill Ukrainians’ which is less popular (eg many Russians will have close ties to some people in Ukraine). It feels to me that the best thing western governments could do is to sig…

It's abundantly clear what the conditions are: Stop the attack against their neighbour and the sanctions are lifted.

Anything less let's Putin get away once again. And right now every country in Europe, and their citizens, are sick of Putin getting away every single time.

I do have a personal stake in this. We're the only western neighbour of Russia that is not in NATO and has not been attacked by them after the fall of Soviet Union. We're basically next, and it wouldn't be the first time Russia would "defend" itself by driving tanks here. I heard enough stories from my grandparents who had to flee due to them. I thought that it's a thing of the past, but it very clearly is not.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#439

Post by BbzzbB »

BossingAround wrote: post #418
tsol wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> I don't support Russia, but I can see why they want Ukraine, a country that is in their borders, to stay in their orbit. This is a complete red herring. They don't want Ukraine to "stay in their orbit," they are colonizers that are fighting against Ukraine's independence. Putin said he doesn't want Ukraine to join NATO. Nobody in NATO is eager to accept Ukraine. Ukraine said they'd stay independent. Now, Putin is s…

I find it weird this idea that Putin was so scared of Ukraine joining NATO because he fears some NATO aggression. By now the most likely objective as far as I'm concerned is that conquering formerly soviet Ukraine has always been in his mind. I could be wrong as I'm not in his head, but to me this war wasn't avoidable by assuring Ukraine's neutrality as some pundits say, at best it was delaying the invasion to the time of his choosing, seemingly now.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#440

Post by coldtea »

politician wrote: post #381
grujicd wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These people also have no idea, except abstract one, how it is to live in authoritarian country, when access to non-government news is hard or impossible, and even saying your opinion can be dangerous. As someone who was on the receiving end of sanctions in ex-yu, despite being antiwar and going to protests, I can’t ever support wide sanctions which affect all people. Years we were under sanctions were the worst year…

You oppose sanctions. Do you support a global nuclear exchange? Sometimes bad things are necessary to forestall worse things. The stark reality of Mutually Assured Destruction is that America will turn Russia, its military, its cities, its dirt into radioactive glass if they launch their nuclear weapons. Look at this reality in the face and then decide if you still oppose sanctions.

>Do you support a global nuclear exchange? Sometimes bad things are necessary to forestall worse things.

Who said sanctions would "forestall" that?

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