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Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

economist.com

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Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#261
post #11

I managed to escape the country yesterday, had to flight to Egypt of all places, because ALL (even business) tickets were sold out. The recent news is that starting March 6 all international flights are suspended, the trap has closed. The disheartening thing is that even if you never supported Putin, other countries treat you as enemy. I am at Georgia now and banks refuse to open bank accounts to Russians, and I need…

a lot of people seem ok with punishing Russian individuals for the actions of the government. maybe these people have grown in better functioning democracies (unlike Russia or my own country) so they act as if the people were well represented by their governments; unlike reality for most countries with a serious corruption problem.

>maybe these people have grown in better functioning democracies (unlike Russia or my own country) so they act as if the people were well represented by their governments;

I think they're mostly grown in countries doing the imposing of sanctions. If they had to suffer the consequences of sanctions imposed on them, for what their own countries did, they'd have a much different understanding.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans about US wars: 'we cannot do anything about our government - they engage in wars and we couldn't stop them if we tried' Americans about Russian wars: 'the average Joes need to go out to the streets and bring Putin down'

Americans can change government during election every few years if they don't like it. Russians can't. That's why the only way is 'the average Joes need to go out to the streets and bring Putin down'.

Except you get 3-15 years in jail for protesting in Russia.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point, it doesn't look at all like we can practically expect a popular revolt. For me there are two outcomes to target with the sanctions: * Make life unpleasant enough for the oligarchs that they replace Putin with someone less intent on ruining the nice thing they had going. * Handicap Russia's ability to wage war. This includes eliminating their ability to buy supplies and destroying their morale. It's the…

Oligarchs don't run the country. They have zero control. It's like saying let's sanction Elon Musk for Iraq. The country is run by the military. Protesters are jailed for 3-5 years. Cornering a dictator with a nuke is the stupidest foreign policy I can think of.

The definition of an oligarch is "someone who is part of a small group that runs a country." (Wiktionary)

So, you can try to claim that Russia doesn't have oligarchs, but if they exist you can't say that they don't run the country.

EDIT: For example, if the country is run by the military as you say, then the top leaders of the military would make up the oligarchy and each of them would be an oligarch.

I'm unsure how any dictator could run a country in the absence of some form of supporting oligarchy.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#264
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

“ Another reason we don't like Russians is” And that’s how wars are maintained. They vs us. Who is we?? How can you dislike millions of people just because they were born inside a border different than yours?

Being born inside a different border doesn't make you a bad person. The beliefs you hold can however.

Russia's culture is directly responsible for what's happening.

How can I possibly dislike a culture of xenophobia, racism, ethnic superiority, conquest lust, power & might as right, advocation of government as a vehicle for conquering, and the use of force as the highest ideal?

I'm speaking of the German region ~1890-1930, which very aggressively espoused and supported such ideas, many millions of people believed similarly to what the Nazi regime ended up codifying as its core ideas. Which had predictable end results. Yes, I can dislike very large numbers of people that hold such ideas, properly so in fact.

How can you dislike hundreds of thousands of racists in southern states circa 1950? Oh quite easily and entirely rationally.

You can dislike evil aspects of a culture. And you can properly dislike people that hold evil ideas, particularly to the extent they're important ideas that shape a big part of who a person is and or help to enable large movements of evil. That goes for the US, just as it does Russia, just as it does for anywhere else. And you can hold people morally responsible for the ideas they choose to believe in and the consequences that those beliefs have when they touch the real world in action.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#265
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was clearly obvious, then why wouldn't the Economist use these other sources directly, instead of leaning so heavily on Google Trends data? It's a flimsy way to present truth.

I am confused by your stance. On one hand I do agree that there is a lot of propaganda on all sides, so one should be especially critical about data sources. On the other hand, I think then that using Google Trends data for this is a pretty excellent source for this data, and a prime example of something that would be difficult to game. It's publicly available, so anyone can verify it. I guess a true conspiracist mig…

At the time of my post, I was unable to verify the Google Trends searches (I was using it incorrectly, and have verified it, see other comments). My main point about using the Trends data is that if there are so many more clearly substantive sources (videos, interviews, history), why lean mainly on Google Trends.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't see any revolting Americans when the Iraq War was initiated.

Sanctions against the US for the Iraq war would have been totally legitimate. What exactly is your point?

That the US is arguably the most powerful nation in the world and that sanctions by smaller economies vs empires like the US are like Palistinian children throwing rocks at Israeli tanks.

It is easy to claim that sanctions against the US would have been legitimate when it is clear to most that they would have had little to no meaningful impact.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#267
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everywhere I've seen anyone motivate restrictions on Russian citizens it's been about pushing them to revolt against their government, not about punishing. I don't know whether it makes sense, but it does seem like one of few avenues to try to get rid of putin that has low chance of resulting in atomic war.

Didn't see any revolting Americans when the Iraq War was initiated.

If Iraq happened today I think more people would be upset and protest.

In 2001 I don't even think I had a cellphone, we didnt have social media like we do now, the only source of news was the News Paper and TV.

If it happened now we would be blastered on twitter with videos / photos of it happening in real time like we are know. Much more aware of war crimes happening.

We can't change what happened in the past but I would like to think we can change the future, and Iraq doesn't happen again.

(I was living in NZ at the time still at school when 9 11 happened)

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From both a humanitarian and a strategic perspective, embracing Russian defectors is the very most important thing that we can be doing right now that we aren't already doing. The only reason not to do so is hate. No, the most humanitarian thing to do is end a war in which civilians are actually being killed. Not embracing those who supported Putin get to this point but suddenly flee when they're personally inconve…

How does persecuting Russians who flee Putin's regime help end the war sooner?

Putin is persecuting them. I just said we shouldn't embrace. There's a lot of middle ground.

Ask someone like Alexei Navalny or Mikhail Khodorkovsky why they stayed to fight and be jailed instead of fleeing. Fleeing doesn't help.

Russia hasn't been conquered since the most recent Russian Empire was formed. But regimes have fallen from within...

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#269
I find it strange that so many people in these threads keep saying things like "go home and fight putin." Imagine if this had been the western response to the German physicists to whom we offered refuge before/during World War II. When the intellectual capital of your enemy is trying to come over to your side, turning them away out of spite isn't "being tough" or "holding people accountable" - it's just counterproductive.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#270
post #11

I managed to escape the country yesterday, had to flight to Egypt of all places, because ALL (even business) tickets were sold out. The recent news is that starting March 6 all international flights are suspended, the trap has closed. The disheartening thing is that even if you never supported Putin, other countries treat you as enemy. I am at Georgia now and banks refuse to open bank accounts to Russians, and I need…

a lot of people seem ok with punishing Russian individuals for the actions of the government. maybe these people have grown in better functioning democracies (unlike Russia or my own country) so they act as if the people were well represented by their governments; unlike reality for most countries with a serious corruption problem.

> a lot of people seem ok with punishing Russian individuals for the actions of the government.

Its easy to say that but you have to look at the bigger picture.

It's easy to say "just punish the government / the oligarchs", but as most Westerners know, these people have become extraordinarily adept at hiding their money and distributing their assets. So it is very difficult indeed to target them per-se, hence you need to make it difficult to move money/assets around, sell assets and gain new money/assets.

You also need to look at the even bigger problem. How do we stop Russia attacking Ukraine ?

Nobody wants World War 3. Even the Americans who are usually keen to test out their latest toys are being remarkably disciplined about sitting on their hands.

So, you don't want to engage in a direct fight with the Russians, what's left on the table ?

Diplomacy ? Well, they've tried and are trying, but not much light at the end of that tunnel as of yet.

So your only option left is to accept that running a war needs two things, money and supplies. If both of those dry up then its only a matter of time before the war grinds to a halt too.

Hence you end up doing things that affect banks, the central bank, transport and logistics.

Regrettably its not just about targeting the military and the government, you have to target the supporting structures too (food, parts, consumables), hence you need to go big and go fast on sanctions.

Yes your average Russian will get caught up in the sanctions. Yes it will be difficult and unpleasant for families.

But frankly the alternative, full-blown war across Europe and the potential for nuclear bombs being used is unfathomably worse for everyone both inside Russia and outside.

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