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Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

marginalrevolution.com

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Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#141

Post by cool_dude85 »

throw10920 wrote: post #115
endisneigh wrote: post #3

Gotta love how discrimination is so easily spread. Like, this guy has said very many times in public that he doesn’t support the invasion, but he’s Russian, y’know? It’s sad how humanity just keeps doing the same thing over and over…

This is completely, totally wrong. There's no "discrimination" here - Grischuk is a Russian citizen , which is why he's being kicked out of the tournament, along with the other Russian citizens mentioned - their ethnicity is a non-factor. The only relevant issue is the question as to whether all Russian citizens (regardless of ethnicity) should be banned from these kinds of events (more generally: have sanctions and…

>Grischuk is a Russian citizen, which is why he's being kicked out of the tournament

I assume Giri for example still has citizenship - I wonder if he will be banned despite not representing Russia.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#142

Post by buzzdenver »

bloak wrote: post #128
buzzdenver wrote: post #36

It is a sucky situation without any perfect solutions. Banning all Russian athletes is a clear decision. Judging everyone based on their individual reactions to the invasion is just not a scalable solution, and probably also puts those who speak out in greater danger.

> Banning all Russian athletes is a clear decision. Yes, it would be clear if you define "Russian". Do you mean everyone who currently holds a Russian passport? Everyone who has at some point held a Russian passport? What about someone who used to have a Soviet passport with their nationality recorded in it as "Russian" but who didn't live in Russia? What about people who used to have a Soviet passport and lived in R…

Any chess players who played under the Russian flag before the invasion. I don't know the exact details in chess, but in most sports you have to declare a country when participating in top level sports. For example dual citizens cannot just switch between playing for any country's national team that they are a citizen of.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#143

Post by throwaway5752 »

agambrahma wrote: post #92

Eh, punishing individuals like this seems pointless, especially _after_ they've made their personal stance clear. Or at least, it doesn't "advance the game of chess", which is what organizers should care more about. There is probably some creative middle ground to be found here, such as awarding them without recognizing Russia, etc.

This is not a case of punishing individuals. From one of the source links from the linked article: "Norway announce that no Russian players will be able to play in the 2022 edition of the event"

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#144

Post by random314 »

throwawayfuture wrote: post #110
agambrahma wrote: post #92

Eh, punishing individuals like this seems pointless, especially _after_ they've made their personal stance clear. Or at least, it doesn't "advance the game of chess", which is what organizers should care more about. There is probably some creative middle ground to be found here, such as awarding them without recognizing Russia, etc.

> Eh, punishing individuals like this seems pointless I feel the same way about Ukranian citizens who are being forced to flee their homes.

Fyi - You are not countering OP, you are supporting his point.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#145

Post by jstx1 »

pastor_bob wrote: post #120
jstx1 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, and Nepo, Grischuk, Svidler etc. don't. Norway Chess treats these two groups the same.

are they supposed to vet individuals with a twitter litmus test? That, in some sense, seems worse.

Some options:

1. Don't ban anyone.

2. Ban only players who have publicly supported Putin and the invasion of Ukraine (like Karjakin has).

3. Ban all Russian because they were born in the wrong country.

You're saying that 3 is better than 2, and I can't agree because in option 3 you're banning innocent people for reasons completely out of their control.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#146

Post by throwaway5752 »

sethbannon wrote: post #7

For those curious, Alexander Grischuk did put out a fairly strong statement of condemnation of the invasion: https://worldchess.com/news/all/alexander-grischuk-on-the-ru... Pretty brave of him.

It absolutely is brave of him, and really commendable. The bravery of a large part of the Russian citizenry who have so much to lose by speaking up is inspiring.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#147

Post by ZainRiz »

harshreality wrote: post #62
agency wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine if Americans were held to the same standard with respect to the American invasion and occupation of Iraq.

I'm not going to defend America's military adventurism, but do you really see no difference between a limited military campaign against a brutal dictator (and yes, partially over control of oil) vs a campaign to take over a bordering, more-democratic country for mythological ethic reasons, including by shelling cities?

"Democracy" is your litmus test, remember that the US has been happy to overthrow democracies and put dictators in power if it better serves their economic interests:

- Panama - US invaded it in 1989 and overthrew their leader - Iran - US staged a coup in 1953

Not to mention how the US is actively helping Saudi Arabia's dictators suppress dissent in both Saudi Arabia itself and neighboring Yemen

More fun reading: https://www.quora.com/How-many-countries-has-the-USA-invaded...

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#148

Post by dahfizz »

Mo3 wrote: post #94
agambrahma wrote: post #92

Eh, punishing individuals like this seems pointless, especially _after_ they've made their personal stance clear. Or at least, it doesn't "advance the game of chess", which is what organizers should care more about. There is probably some creative middle ground to be found here, such as awarding them without recognizing Russia, etc.

Yeah giving them the EU passports and just attributing them to „EU“

Neither Russia, Ukraine, or Norway are in the EU. You may as well make them play for Madagascar; it makes no sense.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#149

Post by cool_dude85 »

mdoms wrote: post #121
endisneigh wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that were actually the issue they’d be allowed to play, but not on behalf of Russia. Though I’m curious - how much time in your opinion has to pass before Russians are allowed to participate again? If actions have to be taken, which ones? If actions can be taken to allow them to participate then in a sense is that saying the actions are sufficient to compensate for the senseless killing of Ukrainians? If no time o…

> Though I’m curious - how much time in your opinion has to pass before Russians are allowed to participate again? How is that relevant? I think no matter what the answer, no one is going to draw the line sooner than "during the actual invasion".

>no one is going to draw the line sooner than "during the actual invasion".

If it's going to just be countries still in ongoing war or occupation, then I suppose China, India, Turkey, France, Israel, and the US will be next on the list to be uninvited from the tournament. I'm sure we could think of more too.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#150

Post by amelius »

jstx1 wrote: post #145
pastor_bob wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

are they supposed to vet individuals with a twitter litmus test? That, in some sense, seems worse.

Some options: 1. Don't ban anyone. 2. Ban only players who have publicly supported Putin and the invasion of Ukraine (like Karjakin has). 3. Ban all Russian because they were born in the wrong country. You're saying that 3 is better than 2, and I can't agree because in option 3 you're banning innocent people for reasons completely out of their control.

Maybe 3 can lead to important people changing nationalities. Which would be super embarrassing for Russia.
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