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Not everyone should meditate

joshcsimmons.com

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Re: Not everyone should meditate

#261

Post by burrows »

bamboozled wrote: post #188
cromd wrote: post #107

For me, meditation started a fundamental shift in how I think about free will, and oddly nobody I've mentioned it to in real life has felt this. I used to feel very in-control of my own mind, but after intentionally sitting and monitoring for thoughts, labeling those thoughts, etc, I became sensitive to how thoughts can really come out of nowhere. You can't predict what you will think next. That strikes a little deep…

From my own practice and what I've read / been taught, it's wrong to be labeling the thoughts, your either simply paying attention to raw experience or you're not. Once you start telling yourself it's good (or bad), you're not longer just an observer you're a participant. By wrong I don't mean to say you're doing anything wrong, but it's not in the spirit of objective mindful meditation. From my own practice, it's he…

OP might be referring to value neutral labels like “thinking”, “feeling”, “vibration”, “buzzing”, etc.

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#262

Post by sooheon »

mettamage wrote: post #90

When I had a daily body scan practice, I body scanned so much that I didn't emotionally recognize myself in the mirror. Only rationally did I know that it was me. But it felt like I was looking at a strange man. I stopped my daily practice after that. Unfortunately, most benefits also went away. Fortunately, a few of them stayed and for that I'm grateful :)

Wow cool. Sounds like semantic satiation.

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#263

Post by Aeolun »

cromd wrote: post #107

For me, meditation started a fundamental shift in how I think about free will, and oddly nobody I've mentioned it to in real life has felt this. I used to feel very in-control of my own mind, but after intentionally sitting and monitoring for thoughts, labeling those thoughts, etc, I became sensitive to how thoughts can really come out of nowhere. You can't predict what you will think next. That strikes a little deep…

I mean, in a sense you are locked into what you are going to do anyway. Even if you think you have a choice, there’s always only one action you will actually take.

That kind of makes me sad, because I’d branch down a lot of paths if I could, but it doesn’t exactly disturb me.

What waits at the end of that path, now that disturbs me.

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#264

Post by Aeolun »

cromd wrote: post #135
DennisP wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thoughts do come up out of nowhere, unpredictably. But with practice, I can choose whether to inhabit them, or simply note them with quiet amusement and let them pass by. I can also pick something to concentrate on, and stay mostly focused on that, while those extra little thoughts just flutter in the background. This all seems to me like an enhancement of free will. (Meditating almost daily.)

I do get these feelings of control, so I can't say I feel like a victim of my thoughts - "let them pass by", as you say, is mostly what I feel. But I think for some people, there's a question like: "I thought I was the originator of many my out-of-the-blue thoughts, and I found out that's not true. Am I actually the originator of the thoughts at the next level up?". I think some people who have never meditated, while…

You are never entirely without external input. Even if you try to ignore all the stimulation you receive it’ll still have an effect on random thoughts popping into your head.

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#265

Post by mi3law »

cromd wrote: post #135
DennisP wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thoughts do come up out of nowhere, unpredictably. But with practice, I can choose whether to inhabit them, or simply note them with quiet amusement and let them pass by. I can also pick something to concentrate on, and stay mostly focused on that, while those extra little thoughts just flutter in the background. This all seems to me like an enhancement of free will. (Meditating almost daily.)

I do get these feelings of control, so I can't say I feel like a victim of my thoughts - "let them pass by", as you say, is mostly what I feel. But I think for some people, there's a question like: "I thought I was the originator of many my out-of-the-blue thoughts, and I found out that's not true. Am I actually the originator of the thoughts at the next level up?". I think some people who have never meditated, while…

Properly read, Plato's allegory of the cave in the Republic is a response to the question you've articulated. Kant noted as much, and when not resolved with dualism (which flowed from Plato through Descartes to the modern day), this allegory offers powerful insights. I love these topics, have been swimming in them recently, so happy to talk more, just email me (info in profile).

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#266

Post by barrenko »

HPsquared wrote: post #239
cromd wrote: post #107

For me, meditation started a fundamental shift in how I think about free will, and oddly nobody I've mentioned it to in real life has felt this. I used to feel very in-control of my own mind, but after intentionally sitting and monitoring for thoughts, labeling those thoughts, etc, I became sensitive to how thoughts can really come out of nowhere. You can't predict what you will think next. That strikes a little deep…

There's the idea that the world is a simulation. I believe it is, but not in the "Matrix" kind of way - more that everything you perceive and experience is a "model" of the outside world that your brain has constructed from the various input signals. You only see a partial reconstruction, a projection of the outside world, literally Plato's cave (the cave being the skull). Sometimes things come in from outside (what…

The ida that the brain models something "outside" is just another thought.

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#268

Post by argentinian »

brigandish wrote: post #197
argentinian wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be quite horrible if that was true, your eternal suffering hypothesis. But fortunately I see no evidence to believe it.

Buddhism is basically (basically) predicated on the idea, I don't see why it's horrible to acknowledge the possibility, especially if it could be true.

Buddhism says that an end of suffering is possible, so it predicates a different idea.

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#269

Post by sparks1970 »

julienb_sea wrote: post #128
cromd wrote: post #107

For me, meditation started a fundamental shift in how I think about free will, and oddly nobody I've mentioned it to in real life has felt this. I used to feel very in-control of my own mind, but after intentionally sitting and monitoring for thoughts, labeling those thoughts, etc, I became sensitive to how thoughts can really come out of nowhere. You can't predict what you will think next. That strikes a little deep…

We don't exhibit complete control over our thoughts, that is provably impossible and anecdotally obvious when reflecting on errant thoughts we have experienced. Free will is about behavior, not thoughts. Our free will is demonstrated by our ability to consciously choose whether and how to act when presented with thoughts and emotions.

Anyone who has had a panic attack or suffered from a social anxiety will tell you that you cannot always choose behaviour. Sometimes you simply cannot get your body to do what you will it to.

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#270

Post by seventhtiger »

argentinian wrote: post #144
DennisP wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thoughts do come up out of nowhere, unpredictably. But with practice, I can choose whether to inhabit them, or simply note them with quiet amusement and let them pass by. I can also pick something to concentrate on, and stay mostly focused on that, while those extra little thoughts just flutter in the background. This all seems to me like an enhancement of free will. (Meditating almost daily.)

What's that choice's source? How do you 'do' it?

Think of how you can make a verbal conscious decision to learn how to ride a bike. Then you get on a bike, and you make a verbal conscious decision to keep your arms stable. Even though you made the choice, your arms won't obey you the first time. Because stabilizing limbs rides the line between a conscious and subconscious activity. But you keep making that choice, and eventually your arms obey you. With more practice, your arms obey a choice you haven't made verbally or consciously. You're riding a bike so of course you want your arms to be stable.

The meaning of choice is not just the single incident of a conscious verbal decision. There's a meta choice, where a choice is made many times over many attempts, until the associated action becomes subconscious. That's the only way we can choose to drive, read, speak, ride a bike, swim, and so on.

This extends to emotions. You only know you're angry after you've become angry. It feels like anger comes from somewhere outside of your control. Yet you can still choose to not be angry, even though you already failed. The more you choose not to be angry the less angry you would be.

It also extends to thoughts. Harmless intrusive thoughts, or distracting useless thoughts, or painful thoughts, all of these pop in without choice. You can still practice exerting choice over a subconscious process you can't control. Even though thoughts come from no where, people who meditate often (pretty quickly too in my own case) exert control over that subconscious area and stop thoughts from even happening.

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