Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4 • Hacker News Board

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#741

Post by bckr » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 8:02 AM UTC

watwut wrote: post #716

bckr wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can do it perfectly on zoom Do you experience Zoom fatigue? The sensation that, while this technology is convenient and useful, you're missing something important? I think this whole debate is really about whether people have this sensation or not.

No. I honestly experience relief, because I don't have to care about how my face looks like while being on meeting. I can sit comfortably. I walk around the room. Sometimes I do few push ups or squats. I make myself a coffee. Zoom meetings are less tiring, because I dont have to care about how I look like. I can focus on content ... or not. I can make myself comfortable.

I'm jealous that you have this experience, honestly. I do the same things, but feel like a caged animal. Maybe I just need a comfier seat.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#742

Post by maxehmookau » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 8:03 AM UTC

Just like everything else, this is just another way to determine which companies I want to work for. For folks like me who are 100% on-board with remote work, I won't work for Google because it's a dealbreaker for me. (They probably wouldn't have me!)

For others, it's not.

That said, at this point I'd almost go as far as to say that city centre-based offices will eventually be consigned to the dustbin of history. Who thought the idea that spending 2 hours a day travelling to and from a physical location (and having to pay for it!) to generate larger profits for shareholders was a legitimate or sensible use of human time and capital?

My health, both physical and mental are immeasurably higher as a remote worker. The biggest argument I hear is "But you don't get to socialise anymore!" but of course I do. I socialise with my colleagues both remotely and in-person and more importantly, I socialise with those I _want_ to socialise with. Members of my community, friends, family, people I choose. Not people who passed the same interview as me.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#743

Post by asd4232 » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 8:05 AM UTC

deanCommie wrote: post #713

com2kid wrote: post #673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some people love the lack of commute and less semi-forced hanging out, some people hate onboarding on a new company as a remote person and so on and so on. My team has been able to hire people from all across the country, gaining access to talent that we normally would not have been able to reach. Because my entire company has gone fully remote, if someone on the team has to take a trip overseas, they can choose to…

> I agree, but I am getting 1/8th of my waking hours back from commuting. What about all the people who already knew spending 2 hours commuting was a terrible use of our time before the pandemic, regardless of how much of a bigger house we could get? So we lived in dense cities, in walkable neighborhoods, where the office was a 15 minute walk away but so were restaurants, parks, grocery stores, and theaters? But part…

You can always move away from that dense city. With booming property prices you should even profit in case you own the apartment, just sell it.

I would also argue that small apartment can be very limiting also for living. I mean, sure, if you spend all your free time in those restaurants, parks, grocery stores and theaters, then it may actually work. But if you wanna do anything that requires personal space, then living in a small apartment is very limiting.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#744

Post by animesh » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 8:08 AM UTC

librish wrote: post #84

I think anyone who's claiming that remote work has been "proven" to be better or worse is wrong. There are some studies but they use estimations and proxies, carrying the same flaws as doing performance reviews based on lines of code. We've proven that the big tech companies can go fully remote and not completely crash and burn, that's about it. Some people love the lack of commute and less semi-forced hanging out, s…

I was in the camp of remote is always better even after being aware of 'never say never' and 'no silver bullet'.

Within the first six months, I realized there is no single answer that works for everyone. It really depends on the ability to institute async communication, self-regulate and whole lot of other factors IMHO.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#745

Post by null_object » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 8:08 AM UTC

librish wrote: post #84

I think anyone who's claiming that remote work has been "proven" to be better or worse is wrong. There are some studies but they use estimations and proxies, carrying the same flaws as doing performance reviews based on lines of code. We've proven that the big tech companies can go fully remote and not completely crash and burn, that's about it. Some people love the lack of commute and less semi-forced hanging out, s…

> I want to be able to quickly resolve any issues in person, not over voice call or slack, and I think that an environment where someone can tap me on the shoulder when they need help leads to overall higher productivity

Aside from all the other advantages of WfH that have already been mentioned in this thread (like no commute, healthier eating, more fresh air and exercise, better work/life balance etc), I really don't think this description of office-life fits my recollection of reality, at all.

In the office it was much more often that wanting to discuss something in person with a couple of colleagues would involve:

1. locating colleague 1

2. going in search of colleague 2 who isn't at their desk

3. disturbing people in the open-office environment asking where colleague 2 is

4. deciding to check again later

5. noticing that colleague 2 is back at their desk

6. looking around and seeing that colleague 1 is not at their desk

7. going over to colleague 2 and asking if they have 5 minutes

8. colleague 2 is deploying, and will be done in 15 minutes

9. ask around and discover that colleague 1 has gone to early lunch

repeat again after lunch

Now with WfH:

1. share screen with colleague 1 and colleague 2

2. problem solved after 5 minutes

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#746

Post by asimpletune » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 8:12 AM UTC

ejb999 wrote: post #111

I have been fully remote my entire career (several decades), in fact in 30+ years have never been on site anywhere for more than 2 weeks total. Wouldn't have it any other way. But as a counter-point, seeing a whole bunch of people who were never remote before, how little work they are actually doing, it is no surprise to me that a lot of employers are going to start forcing - to the extent possible - employees back i…

It seems that being able to work remotely is just a skill unto itself, and one that takes time and patience to cultivate. A lot of it is good written communication, especially when it comes to reading other people's communication, and a lot of it is just being good enough at your job to do the work without feeling like someone is watching you. Makes sense that these things would be hard for people.

If you look at OSS maintainers, a lot of times their written communication is excellent, and they obviously manage their time really well. These are people who by the very nature of what they maintain are distributed.

A lot of OSS software is also of excellent quality, because they don't have the luxury of being able to be in an offer, fire people, etc...

I would argue to the people who complain about not getting stuff done or that they need structure... don't take those feelings as a sign that you need to automatically return to what you know. You can also take it as a sign that you have an opportunity to grow, but it's just hard... which is totally ok and normal. If you can overcome this, you will become an excellent engineer as a result.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#747

Post by tick_tock_tick » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 8:15 AM UTC

canyonero wrote: post #660

librish wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I _personally_ believe distributed teams are less effective. As for your other point, that research is similar to the research on working from home. It measures a controlled thing, but certainly nothing I would use to extrapolate that software engineering teams work less efficiently when people can interrupt each other with questions easily. If you have any studies that you think are good feel free to link them,…

Curious what makes you think distributed teams are less effective? I've personally been much more effective with my output working remotely than I ever was with the noise and distractions of the office. I've seen excellent productivity from my colleagues as well in remote settings, too. It's unfortunate that companies and individuals, like yourself, can't respect the fact that others _are_ more effective remote and w…

I'm sure these mythical people exist but I never run into them. Every coworker I've met that is more "effective" at home is really just trading team velocity for personal velocity. They feel more productive by getting more of "their stuff" done but it happens at the expense of the overall teams speed.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#748

Post by tick_tock_tick » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 8:18 AM UTC

jahewson wrote: post #185

librish wrote: post #84

I think anyone who's claiming that remote work has been "proven" to be better or worse is wrong. There are some studies but they use estimations and proxies, carrying the same flaws as doing performance reviews based on lines of code. We've proven that the big tech companies can go fully remote and not completely crash and burn, that's about it. Some people love the lack of commute and less semi-forced hanging out, s…

I think such an office environment leads to lower productivity. I too present no evidence for this claim. Personally I think I’m right! We should do it my way.

But you're wrong.....

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#749

Post by sologoub » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 8:21 AM UTC

VikingCoder wrote: post #538

librish wrote: post #84

I think anyone who's claiming that remote work has been "proven" to be better or worse is wrong. There are some studies but they use estimations and proxies, carrying the same flaws as doing performance reviews based on lines of code. We've proven that the big tech companies can go fully remote and not completely crash and burn, that's about it. Some people love the lack of commute and less semi-forced hanging out, s…

I would make the claim: "Allowing remote work has been proven to be better." Because it increases the supply of candidates. I also have a bias to believing it increases Diversity and Inclusion, which I think are also good things. I get that I'm leaving as an exercise for the reader "how to implement hybrid teams" and "how to fairly evaluate employees who are remote and not." I've spent roughly a thousand hours of tim…

If companies are truly serious about inclusion and diversity, then embracing remote is a must! In just a few weeks of the initial pandemic lockdowns, I was really taken aback by how meeting dynamics changed - people less comfortable speaking up in crowded rooms or taking on challenging discussion suddenly found their voice. They were speaking up on video conferencing, in the meeting chats, raising hands and sending emoji reactions.

In person interactions literally stifled some of our team members. It’s going to be a challenge to keep this going, but we must - we owe all of our coworkers a voice. These interactions also drove meaningful productivity. I bet we more than offset losses from other lack of in person collaboration.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#750

Post by aequitas » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 8:27 AM UTC

null_object wrote: post #745

librish wrote: post #84

I think anyone who's claiming that remote work has been "proven" to be better or worse is wrong. There are some studies but they use estimations and proxies, carrying the same flaws as doing performance reviews based on lines of code. We've proven that the big tech companies can go fully remote and not completely crash and burn, that's about it. Some people love the lack of commute and less semi-forced hanging out, s…

> I want to be able to quickly resolve any issues in person, not over voice call or slack, and I think that an environment where someone can tap me on the shoulder when they need help leads to overall higher productivity Aside from all the other advantages of WfH that have already been mentioned in this thread (like no commute, healthier eating, more fresh air and exercise, better work/life balance etc), I really don…

> 1. share screen with colleague 1 and colleague 2

Even better imho, anytime working together with more than 1 person you don't have to awkwardly huddle around the single 22" screen on your desk squinting at the code. Everyone has the shared screen in full view and can even draw on the screen (yay, no more finger smudge marks) to point at what they mean.