Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug • Hacker News Board

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#221

Post by rewgs » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 3:12 AM UTC

Talanes wrote: post #213

rewgs wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having a difficulty selection doesn't remove anything from the game. I actually seriously disagree here. Especially with Souls games. Difficulty, whether it scales with your abilities or not, etc, is a pivotal, foundational component of game design that affects nearly everything else. And as the article points out, the point here is not the difficulty per say (something that is way too overemphasized with these gam…

Was Elden Ring's tutorial any different from what they've been doing? Except for being skippable, it felt basically like the DS1 tutorial.

Their other ones are very minimal. "R1 for fast attack." Etc. That's it. And they're delivered as messages, which simultaneously introduces you to the messaging system.

ER delivers them as very big popups that actually pause gameplay -- a first for the series, I think (pausing of any kind, I mean, besides cinematics). The fact that they're not delivered through the messaging system has I think led to some confusion for new players as to what the messages even are.

The popups also have more info, which I think can ironically be overwhelming for new players. Something as simple as "R1 for fast attack" allows players to discover the intricacies and nuances on their own through trial and error, whereas a big wall of text that takes them out of the game can feel like information overload after the 2nd or 3rd. I'm a pretty experienced player of the genre and even I was like "jesus, chill out" after the first few popups explaining new mechanics that are specific to ER (another problem -- there's a lot of new mechanics, so it really can feel overwhelming fast, and thus finding mastery and the pleasure it brings can be more difficult).

It's not a huge thing, but I definitely noticed it and was actually really struck by it. I found it very surprising, given the previous games' extreme minimalism in this regard.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#222

Post by calsy » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 4:10 AM UTC

cameronh90 wrote: post #217

calsy wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No your eyes aren't good enough to know the resolution of minute textures or the polygon count on screen on for games on current gen systems. You see low textures while others don't, it's completely subjective without really numbers and your obvious negative bias plays into it. I asked for details, and now they are provided you can see they are flawed. And please, stop pretending that you even played the game past 5…

Why would we have a negative bias? We bought the game. We wanted to enjoy it. I'm not in the habit of buying things simply to criticise them online. You're trying to deny that it's possible to see difference in the visuals of video games, which is bizarre considering the whole point of new generations of consoles and GPUs is for the graphical improvements. I can see the difference in mesh density, texture resolution…

You paid $1000s for a GTX 3080 but bought the game on PS5 and claim it is some low res, pop-in, shimmering graphics on console but yet its the best version although you never played it on other platforms.

You can differentiate texture resolutions and polygon counts across platforms. You claim everyone agrees that the PC version is horrible port and has some major performance problems and crashes, but strangely enough it's currently the most played game on Steam.

You say for many many people it's one of the most buggiest games they've experienced at release, yet it hasn't been taken down for sale like Cyberpunk or had its player base disappear like BF2042 or New World.

You continue to make generalised statements like 'many many people', 'all critics', 'everyone agrees' and name random social sites giving the misleadingly impression that everyone agrees with you.

I can tell you with absolute certainty that it looks better then Demon Souls remastered from a PS3 game with reused upscaled textures. Everyone agrees so it's true.

...Sorry but I don't think anything you say is genuine, so there is no point continuing the argument.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#223

Post by Koiwai » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 4:52 AM UTC

For the record I love Sekiro, and went back and beat Demon's Souls and Dark Souls, but gave up on DS2/3, Bloodborne and Elden Ring.

I believe Soulsborne's only charm, is when you finally beat that foe, that feel of accomplishment, that depends on the fact it's hard, the game is nothing on easy.

The battle system itself, basically roll forever and slash once here and there, is inferior to most action games.

Sekiro on the other hand, has like the best battle system.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#224

Post by didibus » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 7:05 AM UTC

aixi wrote: post #182

aordano wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's debatable; where the «experience» or delivery a game tries to reach, end? Where do we draw the line between considering it a modification of the "soul" of the game? This is an important distinction because a game is much more rich and complex than a book, and has many more axes where things can change. I fathom that for some people the level of punishment is just too much, and maybe that flies in the fac…

> Where do we draw the line between considering it a modification of the "soul" of the game? At this point it is clear difficulty is a staple of the series and the ambiance of all the Souls games. Every time a new game comes out, this complaint is raised by people who don't play the games and Miyazaki has decided not to add these explicit difficulty changing settings, so I think it's evident that its part of the soul…

> Every time a new game comes out, this complaint is raised by people who don't play the games

I've played the games and still have that criticism. I consider them less good because of it. Ever since I played Celeste and saw the way they handled accessibility options, when I see a game that doesn't, I'm like, ya, that's just a negative of this game, it just gives you less than Celeste does, and mind you I didn't use them in Celeste, but I tried them out, really well done, really commendable, and I did have to use them for the DLC, that damn Chapter 9, holy cow, Souls games are a stroll in the park in comparison, I don't know how anyone finished Chapter 9 of Celeste without help, but I disgress haha.

That said, maybe this is a good example, if Chapter 9 of Celeste didn't have accessibility options, I'd have not been able to experience all of it, to close out on the story, or to get around some of the hardest rooms in it and in doing so being able to then enjoy beating some of the ones after without the cheats. I'd just have gotten less enjoyment out of it. On top of that, beating something with the cheats feels like training, I still have the thought of going back one day and trying it with less of them, or without them at all, and getting further. So I imagine for some people Souls games are like Chapter 9 of Celeste is to me, and I really see only positives in that case to have such options.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#225

Post by cameronh90 » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 10:16 AM UTC

calsy wrote: post #222

cameronh90 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would we have a negative bias? We bought the game. We wanted to enjoy it. I'm not in the habit of buying things simply to criticise them online. You're trying to deny that it's possible to see difference in the visuals of video games, which is bizarre considering the whole point of new generations of consoles and GPUs is for the graphical improvements. I can see the difference in mesh density, texture resolution…

You paid $1000s for a GTX 3080 but bought the game on PS5 and claim it is some low res, pop-in, shimmering graphics on console but yet its the best version although you never played it on other platforms. You can differentiate texture resolutions and polygon counts across platforms. You claim everyone agrees that the PC version is horrible port and has some major performance problems and crashes, but strangely enough…

I didn't buy a 3080 for Elden Ring. I play other games too. I bought the game for PS5 because the reviews said the PC version is a bad port and I prefer the PS5 controller. I'm more typically a console gamer because PC games tend to be worse ports now, but if you think that's so suspicious, the reason I bought the 3080 is for Flight Simulator in VR.

I said for me and many others it's one of the buggiest games, but that I haven't played Cyberpunk. I don't know statistically how many people that is but it seems fairly widespread. I haven't even heard of New World.

I'm making generalized statements because what else can I do? If I point out individuals, you just say that's one person. I don't keep stats for reviewers. If you can't see that most post release PC reviews mention performance and stuttering then that's up to you I suppose.

It's like I said - it may be a great game. I just can't play it. I think the graphics suck but that wouldn't stop me playing it. The last buggy at release game I played was Flight Simulator, and I quit it after buying it for a few months as a result, and picked it back up later. Now it's one of my favourite games.

It's strange to me that you appear to be taking criticism of a video game so personally.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#226

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 11:57 AM UTC

cameronh90 wrote: post #225

calsy wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You paid $1000s for a GTX 3080 but bought the game on PS5 and claim it is some low res, pop-in, shimmering graphics on console but yet its the best version although you never played it on other platforms. You can differentiate texture resolutions and polygon counts across platforms. You claim everyone agrees that the PC version is horrible port and has some major performance problems and crashes, but strangely enough…

I didn't buy a 3080 for Elden Ring. I play other games too. I bought the game for PS5 because the reviews said the PC version is a bad port and I prefer the PS5 controller. I'm more typically a console gamer because PC games tend to be worse ports now, but if you think that's so suspicious, the reason I bought the 3080 is for Flight Simulator in VR. I said for me and many others it's one of the buggiest games, but th…

[deleted]

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#227

Post by fattless » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 2:29 PM UTC

ssully wrote: post #177

aixi wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Having said that, I still think they should add some accessibility features that can make the game easier. What they do in Mario Kart or Celeste I think is great. Instead of making difficulties which means some of them won't get proper design and balance. Focus on a single difficulty, but add accessibility features that can make it easier. I think it's important to do that so people who have handicaps, are younger,…

Having a difficulty selection doesn't remove anything from the game. Those who want to play on easy can, while those who want the "standard" experience can stick with the regular difficulty. When I play Doom (be it classic, or 2016/Eternal), at a minimum I play on Ultra Violence because I personally think that's how the game is meant to be played. Believe it or not, there are plenty of people that play those games on…

I agree with you in pretty much every case, except probably from games and games aiming for the same thing.

So much of the experience comes from the struggle to overcome overwhelming odds and an oppressive world. That’s thematically why the hollows exist in ds, it all builds toward its theme. Lowering the difficulty would disrupt this, those odds become a lot less daunting, the atmosphere is hurt, and the player dosent engage with the world in its themes in the same way.

A more under appreciated aspect is the bonds it creates within players. There is a shared experience between players, and the difficulty encourages players to engage in the subtle cooperation that inspired the series in the first place. Not to mention the summoning mechanics make the game much easier while pushing this cooperation and solidarity

In games that emphasize this, the difficulty is crucial to the expirences and engaging with it in the same way. I see it the same way as filmmakers or authors using unconventional techniques to push the viewer to engage with the themes in a deeper way

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#228

Post by fattless » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 2:34 PM UTC

didibus wrote: post #202

aixi wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Having said that, I still think they should add some accessibility features that can make the game easier. What they do in Mario Kart or Celeste I think is great. Instead of making difficulties which means some of them won't get proper design and balance. Focus on a single difficulty, but add accessibility features that can make it easier. I think it's important to do that so people who have handicaps, are younger,…

Because I just don't see why not. The game would still be the same, I'd have experienced it the same way. The only change is a few more people would have also gotten enjoyment out of it. Dostoyevsky is a bad example, because a book is a book, the only accessibility option you can provide is a dictionary maybe and some guides to go along it. But a video game isn't a book, you can easily add a few cheats as options wit…

I agree with you in pretty much every case, except probably from games and games aiming for the same thing.

So much of the experience comes from the struggle to overcome overwhelming odds and an oppressive world. That’s thematically why the hollows exist in ds, it all builds toward its theme. Lowering the difficulty would disrupt this, those odds become a lot less daunting, the atmosphere is hurt, and the player dosent engage with the world in its themes in the same way.

A more under appreciated aspect is the bonds it creates within players. There is a shared experience between players, and the difficulty encourages players to engage in the subtle cooperation that inspired the series in the first place. Not to mention the summoning mechanics make the game much easier while pushing this cooperation and solidarity

In games that emphasize this, the difficulty is crucial to the expirences and engaging with it in the same way. I see it the same way as filmmakers or authors using unconventional techniques to push the viewer to engage with the themes in a deeper way

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#229

Post by mathteddybear » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 2:39 PM UTC

markus_zhang wrote: post #16

I heard about these gamed and watched a few hours of gameplay each. I was unconvinced and closed the YouTube tabs after it became too boring. I guess I have to play it to feel it? But most of the games I enjoy playing are fun to watch. Duke3d and Baldurs Gate are two examples. Can someone elaborate why Dark Soul is actually fun to play, and more importantly why sold for so many copies? I read other comments and the t…

I cannot recall if they were popular games that matched it at the time. Let's not underestimate the online elements of the game (and the lack of difficulty levels, lack of saving game, that goes with it). As for the combat, that was the height of "Batman" combat on consoles. Cue internet discussions where fans of DS praised its combat design, while PC players with Mount&Blade were not impressed much.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#230

Post by didibus » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 10:04 PM UTC

fattless wrote: post #228

didibus wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I just don't see why not. The game would still be the same, I'd have experienced it the same way. The only change is a few more people would have also gotten enjoyment out of it. Dostoyevsky is a bad example, because a book is a book, the only accessibility option you can provide is a dictionary maybe and some guides to go along it. But a video game isn't a book, you can easily add a few cheats as options wit…

I agree with you in pretty much every case, except probably from games and games aiming for the same thing. So much of the experience comes from the struggle to overcome overwhelming odds and an oppressive world. That’s thematically why the hollows exist in ds, it all builds toward its theme. Lowering the difficulty would disrupt this, those odds become a lot less daunting, the atmosphere is hurt, and the player dose…

I understand what you mean, but I fail to see how adding some accessibility options would change that.

I keep using Celeste as an example, because it's an even harder game, but it had accessibility options done very well, and everything you say exist in that game and was not harmed in any way.

The game is brutal, it plays into the atmosphere and story, the players bond over it, had to learn to overcome the challenges, there's forums of people talking about how brutal and how many times they died and how happy they were when they made it, etc.

That's why I don't see the resistance to adding options like that, because from my vantage point, it doesn't take anything away, it only expands who can get to experience a similar thing.

The only reason I can think of is if you're saying that you personally couldn't resist turning on all the cheats all the time and thus ruining the experience for yourself. I don't have that problem, and from other Celeste players I don't see many who had that problem. It seems even a lot of people when turning on cheats wait a long time, and then they try to turn on the minimum amount and see if they can make it, and only after failing more time do they maybe try to add another one, etc.

Anyways, that's just my point of view. I respect the people feeling differently.