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Not everyone should meditate

joshcsimmons.com

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Re: Not everyone should meditate

#141

Post by cheschire »

electriclizard wrote: post #133
kranke155 wrote: post #87

The author might be more correct than he imagines. I suffer from bipolar disorder, which was “activated” during a heavy meditation period 5 years ago or so. My therapist now advises me to stay away from it. She says that meditation is a form of “self hypnosis” and that I should stay away from daily practice, which is what I had previously.

It's been a bit like having access to my computer's terminal for me. I didn't expect the power. I did way more than just turn off the distractions. I fucked some shit up and had to spend some time in the shop. But I also learned how to fix the stuff that was broken and then stay the hell away from the terminal the rest of the time. My issue was mainly that I couldn't turn the UI back on. But also I fucked up all the…

Metaforgotten…

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#142

Post by argentinian »

heyoni wrote: post #117
littlethrowaway wrote: post #110

No, they certainly shouldn't... for various reasons I did a vipassana 10 day silent retreat back in 2010, and, ended up triggering a bipolar episode[0]. No, there was no history of that in my family, it was a complete surprise. This obviously doesn't happen to everyone doing it, but, while my blog is very much buried now, I still get yearly mails from people saying that the same thing happened to them.. [0]. http://l…

I quit on day 5. My life started playing itself in my head on repeat and I started to focus on all the pain. I would imagine the universe dying and coming back to life where everything, especially some nasty events would reoccur ad infinitum. I was convinced that the people who were unlucky in this life were actually suffering for eternity and practically lost it. I had a panic attack, and then another and finally ta…

> I was convinced that the people who were unlucky in this life were actually suffering for eternity and practically lost it.

Do you have some idea now about why that conviction seemed believable to you at that moment?

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#143

Post by argentinian »

cromd wrote: post #107

For me, meditation started a fundamental shift in how I think about free will, and oddly nobody I've mentioned it to in real life has felt this. I used to feel very in-control of my own mind, but after intentionally sitting and monitoring for thoughts, labeling those thoughts, etc, I became sensitive to how thoughts can really come out of nowhere. You can't predict what you will think next. That strikes a little deep…

Do you consider that there's a "you", a self, apart from what you call your life?

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#144

Post by argentinian »

DennisP wrote: post #127
cromd wrote: post #107

For me, meditation started a fundamental shift in how I think about free will, and oddly nobody I've mentioned it to in real life has felt this. I used to feel very in-control of my own mind, but after intentionally sitting and monitoring for thoughts, labeling those thoughts, etc, I became sensitive to how thoughts can really come out of nowhere. You can't predict what you will think next. That strikes a little deep…

The thoughts do come up out of nowhere, unpredictably. But with practice, I can choose whether to inhabit them, or simply note them with quiet amusement and let them pass by. I can also pick something to concentrate on, and stay mostly focused on that, while those extra little thoughts just flutter in the background. This all seems to me like an enhancement of free will. (Meditating almost daily.)

What's that choice's source? How do you 'do' it?

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#145

Post by dorfsmay »

servytor wrote: post #104

I think meditation is a way of being nice to our right hemisphere. Our left hemisphere is responsible for speech, and our right hemisphere is mute. Be nice to your right hemisphere, it's you too, and it doesn't like listening to your jibber-jabber. On a semi-related note, I think the movie 'Us' by Jordan Peele is about our split-minds. The protagonists are the left-hemispheres, and the clones are our right hemisphere…

Yes, some forms of meditation, in particular "open awareness" is said to give more space to the right hemisphere.

I highly recommend this video if you want to hear about what life is when the right hemisphere is in control, especially for people who have been doing non-dual practices (lots of parallel experiences IMO):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyyjU8fzEYU

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#146

Post by cromd »

julienb_sea wrote: post #128
cromd wrote: post #107

For me, meditation started a fundamental shift in how I think about free will, and oddly nobody I've mentioned it to in real life has felt this. I used to feel very in-control of my own mind, but after intentionally sitting and monitoring for thoughts, labeling those thoughts, etc, I became sensitive to how thoughts can really come out of nowhere. You can't predict what you will think next. That strikes a little deep…

We don't exhibit complete control over our thoughts, that is provably impossible and anecdotally obvious when reflecting on errant thoughts we have experienced. Free will is about behavior, not thoughts. Our free will is demonstrated by our ability to consciously choose whether and how to act when presented with thoughts and emotions.

Well, does someone who can't control their thoughts really control their own behavior? Is there any basis for thought/behavior that science knows of, that is not physiological? Scientists have never put out a press release saying "we've discovered that there are non-physiological processes called 'will' that actually make you even more in control than previously suspected". It's always the other way around - they find that things we used to assign to "will", are in fact caused by something else.

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#147

Post by borepop »

mtalantikite wrote: post #137

Coincidentally Mingyur Rinpoche just posted a talk about this as well [1]. I think the most important thing is to find a lineage to practice under, with texts that can support that practice. As much as people want to divorce it from it's historical context, meditation is part of a spiritual practice and communities of people have ways of teaching it in particular ways for a reason. No one should just go sit with zero…

>No one should just go sit with zero context and no support.

C'mon now. It's not hang-gliding or dropping acid, it's sitting quietly in a room. Not everything in life should be treated as if it's horrendously risky or can't possibly be understood by people exercising common sense.

Nor, in my opinion, do the agglomeration of various meditative practices and teachings, no matter how old and "sacred" they may theoretically be, necessarily have anything all that critical to add to the subjective experience of simply sitting quietly. Just like the practices and teachings that accompany many organized religions, a lot of meditative lingo and theories about meditative "progress" is, IMHO, horseshit peddled by people who have decided to make a living selling said horseshit or have defined themselves by their unquestioning acceptance of said horseshit.

edit: I should add that I can recognize that, as others discuss in this thread, deep meditation over long periods may trigger various psychological issues for some people. However, it's also true that, for example, eating food can be extremely problematic for some people who have serious eating disorders. That doesn't mean that the mere act of eating, which most people manage to do just fine, somehow needs to be guided by some deep tradition, and I don't believe that sitting in meditation needs such guidance in general either. For most people, meditation is a very gentle, mildly restorative practice that aids mood and focus, not some metaphysically shattering cataclysm.

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#148

Post by cromd »

argentinian wrote: post #139
julienb_sea wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't exhibit complete control over our thoughts, that is provably impossible and anecdotally obvious when reflecting on errant thoughts we have experienced. Free will is about behavior, not thoughts. Our free will is demonstrated by our ability to consciously choose whether and how to act when presented with thoughts and emotions.

Ha, it's like Hume said. If your actions and thoughts depend on past events and biological and environmental stimulus, they are not free, they are conditioned, they are a reaction to past experience. And the alternative would be random actions, and random is not free, it's random.

That makes a good distinction. Is he taking one side or the other though? Seems to me like deterministic != free, and random also != free. So maybe nothing is free?

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#149

Post by srcreigh »

argentinian wrote: post #140
srcreigh wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, we both have free will and our thoughts don't always come from us. Some things we see with our eyes are from our own movements, others are from externalities. I believe thoughts are the same but neither contradicts free will.

How do you define that "us", the self?

I believe in individuality; we aren't all one, other people exist, etc.

Understanding oneself is the whole point of one's life so it can't really be defined. Knowledge is more than definitions. The self is more than the body and the mind at least.

Those are my personal beliefs anyways.

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#150

Post by izzygonzalez »

borepop wrote: post #147
mtalantikite wrote: post #137

Coincidentally Mingyur Rinpoche just posted a talk about this as well [1]. I think the most important thing is to find a lineage to practice under, with texts that can support that practice. As much as people want to divorce it from it's historical context, meditation is part of a spiritual practice and communities of people have ways of teaching it in particular ways for a reason. No one should just go sit with zero…

>No one should just go sit with zero context and no support. C'mon now. It's not hang-gliding or dropping acid, it's sitting quietly in a room. Not everything in life should be treated as if it's horrendously risky or can't possibly be understood by people exercising common sense. Nor, in my opinion, do the agglomeration of various meditative practices and teachings, no matter how old and "sacred" they may theoretica…

It's like programming. You don't need anyone's support or help to pick it up and start building things. If you don't seek out resources, though, you are liable to fall into bad habits and constantly reinventing the wheel.

Meditation sometimes leads to weird or difficult experiences. That's just like any other effortful activity we engage in. There's many who have encountered similar problems before us and their guidance could mean the difference between astagnant practice and reaching what one aspires to.

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