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Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

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Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#201

Post by aixi »

mrtranscendence wrote: post #198
aixi wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People's cognitive capabilities can also degrade as they age. Should every author write easier to comprehend versions of their works because of it? I don't think so. That being said, even with degraded reaction times, every Souls game is completely passable.

> Should every author write easier to comprehend versions of their works because of it? The tradeoffs are much less clear for prose. That said, outside of fiction writers should absolutely be thinking about accessibility, and should pay attention that they are writing in a way that can be understood by their intended audience (which may include people with cognitive impairment). Further, if someone who has difficulty…

>Further, if someone who has difficulty with Crime and Punishment wants to read it, there are abridged versions, audiobooks, dramatizations, and other ways to enjoy it.

And if you really want to play Dark Souls and can't be bothered with all the tools the game gives you that make it easier, you can mod it or use cheat engine.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#202

Post by didibus »

aixi wrote: post #129
didibus wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The games are easier then I thought they'd be. I waited to play them for a long time, because of how hard people made them out. But you only really need a bit of patience, slow down what you do in the combat, and give bosses a few try. I find plenty of other games were a lot harder for me, like Hades, Celeste, Meat Boy or Returnal for example. I think actually the genius about Souls games is that unlike Roguelikes or…

>Having said that, I still think they should add some accessibility features that can make the game easier. What they do in Mario Kart or Celeste I think is great. Instead of making difficulties which means some of them won't get proper design and balance. Focus on a single difficulty, but add accessibility features that can make it easier. I think it's important to do that so people who have handicaps, are younger,…

Because I just don't see why not.

The game would still be the same, I'd have experienced it the same way. The only change is a few more people would have also gotten enjoyment out of it.

Dostoyevsky is a bad example, because a book is a book, the only accessibility option you can provide is a dictionary maybe and some guides to go along it.

But a video game isn't a book, you can easily add a few cheats as options without changing the work in any way. I'm not Dostoyevsky, but if I wrote a book, I'd love for a way to have even the illeterate somehow magically be able to read my book just the same. That's what video games allow the authors to do.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#203

Post by slothtrop »

mrtranscendence wrote: post #199
slothtrop wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difficulty is definitely an overstatement. It can be rendered trivial with in-game options, the right build, co-op. The quality that these games have is forcing players to be tactful. It's not a mindless affair, but it doesn't require fast reflexes either to excel either. However, ways to approaching the game are unclear at the outset and they don't hold your hand either, which is a double-edged sword. There is v…

> You have to kind of enjoy not knowing where to go exactly Honestly, this is why I've never really enjoyed the Dark Souls games. Difficult bosses I'm fine with; I can handle gameplay. But I get lost going to the bathroom. If I leave a game for two days and come back to it I have no idea what I'm doing or where anything is. Without something prodding me in the right direction (or helping me get back to where I was be…

Yeah I get it. It's funny because, despite ER having a map, I feel way more lost in the open world. DS games may have had a few branching sections but they're more or less linear, here you're having to just pick a direction and hope to find something. And then you encounter all these random bosses that seem overpowered and calculating when would be best to fight them.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#204

Post by stnmtn »

Osmose wrote: post #47
TheFattestNinja wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its tricky. If we look at games as art, and I think we can agree that From's one are complex enough to warrant it, on one hand I agree that cutting off someone from experiencing your art seems silly and injust, but then you think of other media: a dyslexic person will not be able to experience a complex book like a non dyslexic would. Is it right to simplify the book to only use simple english or would that compromis…

Accessibility for dyslexia isn't about changing to "simple english" though. You can offer customizable fonts on e-readers (people with dyslexia may find some fonts have more recognizable word shapes than others, e.g. Comic Sans is a popular option that is widely available), you can offer your work as an audiobook, etc. There are many games that offer similarly difficult experiences with accessibility options that did…

I mean, the other example of not all art can be accessible to everyone is film and people who are blind.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#205

Post by [deleted] »

mrtranscendence wrote: post #197
aixi wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where do we draw the line between considering it a modification of the "soul" of the game? At this point it is clear difficulty is a staple of the series and the ambiance of all the Souls games. Every time a new game comes out, this complaint is raised by people who don't play the games and Miyazaki has decided not to add these explicit difficulty changing settings, so I think it's evident that its part of the soul…

> If you want a challenge with fantastic ambience, you play a Souls game --- If you don't, you don't want to play Dark Souls What you seem to be missing is that what counts as "a challenge" will vary from individual to individual. When I argue that soulslikes should have better accessibility options (including difficulty settings) I'm not saying that I want the game to not be challenging -- I'm saying that the diffic…

[deleted]

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#206

Post by mrtranscendence »

aixi wrote: post #200
mrtranscendence wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want a challenge with fantastic ambience, you play a Souls game --- If you don't, you don't want to play Dark Souls What you seem to be missing is that what counts as "a challenge" will vary from individual to individual. When I argue that soulslikes should have better accessibility options (including difficulty settings) I'm not saying that I want the game to not be challenging -- I'm saying that the diffic…

>I'm saying that the difficulty should adapt to meet the players where they are to maintain a challenge for them. (...) You could say, well, there IS an easy mode; just spend days grinding out levels. That kind of sucks, though. That is not the only option. Summon other players. But you understand the contradiction of what you're saying, correct? >[goes on to write a paragraph that could be used as the definition of…

> But you understand the contradiction of what you're saying, correct?

I do not. What is the contradiction in what I'm saying? Giving the opportunity to grind levels isn't at all the best way to meet players where they are. If the game let you beat any boss by poking yourself in the eye with a stick that wouldn't be a good method of addressing difficulty either. Unless you're saying that Dark Souls is somehow about having to grind.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#207

Post by everdrive »

didibus wrote: post #115
Trasmatta wrote: post #7

The popular discourse seems to focus on the difficulty of From's games, but that's just one part of the entire experience. FromSoft has a holistic approach to game design that very few other studios manage to match. There's just an incredible amount of depth to their world building, and the gameplay, difficulty level, online mechanics, level design, characters, music, story, and themes all work to reinforce and compl…

The games are easier then I thought they'd be. I waited to play them for a long time, because of how hard people made them out. But you only really need a bit of patience, slow down what you do in the combat, and give bosses a few try. I find plenty of other games were a lot harder for me, like Hades, Celeste, Meat Boy or Returnal for example. I think actually the genius about Souls games is that unlike Roguelikes or…

>Having said that, I still think they should add some accessibility features that can make the game easier.

They do have that. Particularly the first Dark Souls game:

- You can bonfires if you need extra help getting through levels.

- You can summon people for help if you're struggling on a boss.

- You can just level up or grind some more.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#208

Post by rewgs »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #142
rewgs wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chiming in to say that I think DS3 is the best intro the series. I tried a couple, including Bloodborne, and swore them off claiming I hated them. But then I tried DS3 and for some reason the whole thing clicked. It benefits from the faster gameplay and lessons learned from Bloodborne, but is a bit less difficult than Bloodborne, and still gives you a shield (very useful for newer players).

Yeah I agree; DS 3 is a lot more versatile in terms of playstyle than Bloodborne and especially Sekiro is. DS3: Dodge, shield block, shield parry, stick to ranged attacks, heavy armor, your choice. Bloodborne: Dodge or parry with a gun, which sometimes works. Sekiro: Deflect or you die. Lrn2play noob. I'm oversimplifying probably, but the point is DS3 is the most versatile while Sekiro is the least. That said, as one…

Referring to hbomberguy right? I love his videos.

And yes, I agree -- even if BB isn't your first (could be a good first for some people, but it wasn't for me), it more than any other From game affects your play style for the better. Starting as a knight in DS3, using the shield and hiding behind it, was pivotal in allowing me to start to understand and appreciate these games, but my enjoyment and skill skyrocketed when I took a page out of BB's book and ditched the shield.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#209

Post by rewgs »

ssully wrote: post #177
aixi wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Having said that, I still think they should add some accessibility features that can make the game easier. What they do in Mario Kart or Celeste I think is great. Instead of making difficulties which means some of them won't get proper design and balance. Focus on a single difficulty, but add accessibility features that can make it easier. I think it's important to do that so people who have handicaps, are younger,…

Having a difficulty selection doesn't remove anything from the game. Those who want to play on easy can, while those who want the "standard" experience can stick with the regular difficulty. When I play Doom (be it classic, or 2016/Eternal), at a minimum I play on Ultra Violence because I personally think that's how the game is meant to be played. Believe it or not, there are plenty of people that play those games on…

> Having a difficulty selection doesn't remove anything from the game.

I actually seriously disagree here. Especially with Souls games. Difficulty, whether it scales with your abilities or not, etc, is a pivotal, foundational component of game design that affects nearly everything else. And as the article points out, the point here is not the difficulty per say (something that is way too overemphasized with these games -- they're not that hard), but the emotional result of it. A "difficulty setting" is just far too basic a paradigm of thinking about something that is actually very complex and not easy to change while still retaining the game as something recognizable as itself.

I'm even against having tutorials in these games. Not because of some "hardcore" or "gatekeeper" thing, but because figuring it out (and the resulting lightbulb moment) is magic and rare in games nowadays, which are pathologically opposed to doing anything that isn't holding the player's hand for dear life. It's annoying and feels condescending, like a piece of software that doesn't allow you to do what you want. The Souls games respect the intelligence and ingenuity of the player, and that's one reason why I truly love them, and why Elden Ring's tutorial kinda irked me a little bit. There's a lot in this game that makes me feel like From is inching more towards all the trappings of standard AAA design -- pop-ups, tutorials, waypoints, etc. The beauty of Souls games is the brutalist, dropping you into the deep end, and letting you figure it out, and I really hope that the genre's popularity doesn't get rid of what makes fans love them.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#210

Post by rewgs »

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #179
Trasmatta wrote: post #7

The popular discourse seems to focus on the difficulty of From's games, but that's just one part of the entire experience. FromSoft has a holistic approach to game design that very few other studios manage to match. There's just an incredible amount of depth to their world building, and the gameplay, difficulty level, online mechanics, level design, characters, music, story, and themes all work to reinforce and compl…

I guess I'm at a loss then. I've enjoyed the Souls series and have beaten all the games multiple times. They're also the only RPG I've ever played where I have absolutely no idea what's going on with the character past the entrance cinematic. I go into areas, kill things, fight named bosses until they die, and then go somewhere else. I'm sure it's a thematic part of the experience, but it makes the games feel like em…

I love From's games and yes this is a criticism that I absolutely agree with. In previous games, the story and lore was cryptic, but rich. It was delivered in a way that made you intrigued and you had to look for it, but it was all very coherent and cohesive and detailed and satisfying. And even if you didn't dive deep, the cryptic nature was intriguing enough to still make a shallow experience interesting.

I'm 30 hours into Elden Ring, have no idea what the Elden Ring is or why I or anyone else wants to be the Elden Lord, whatever that is. This is easily my biggest criticism of the game. Combat-wise it's as good as ever, but man in this area it is sorely lacking. But who knows, maybe it'll open up more as the game goes on. I've admittedly done very little of the story stuff (ran into Margit and fucked off doing random stuff so I could be strong enough to face him, which I plan on doing tonight), so perhaps that's the problem.

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