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Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

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Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#191

Post by mattgreenrocks »

yumiris wrote: post #122

Must admit, the article and comments have completely changed my impression of the Souls series. The "git gud" mantra has been drilled into my numbskull to the point where I would restart a boss fight even if I got hit once. I got a wee bit too persuaded into rushing and mastering (which, of course, can't be done at the same time), because anything less meant that I ain't doing it right. In the end, I gave up on the S…

I've bounced off Sekiro 2 or 3 times, but DS3 was the game that got me hooked, so give that a try as well.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#192

Post by jterrys »

aixi wrote: post #184
ssully wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a difficulty selection doesn't remove anything from the game. Those who want to play on easy can, while those who want the "standard" experience can stick with the regular difficulty. When I play Doom (be it classic, or 2016/Eternal), at a minimum I play on Ultra Violence because I personally think that's how the game is meant to be played. Believe it or not, there are plenty of people that play those games on…

It impacts your experience in the sense that development time was given to balancing different difficulties. Even if the Souls games had a 'no damage taken' mode, for example, there are multiple mechanics where you fall off a cliff and die, and these things would take development time to correct. And again, it would mess with the author's vision on what the ambiance of the games should be like; It's oppressive becaus…

>It's oppressive because it's supposed to be, and frankly people who don't get it and demand explicit difficulty settings don't really want to play Dark Souls at all.

I 100% agree. I'm not really deep into the Souls games. My first game was Dark Souls 3 (after which, I went back to the original, and am still trying to setup and emulator for Demon's Souls).

What I find very compelling about these games' design is that the environment itself is very fair yet brutal. You don't run and jump across cliffs willy-nilly. You don't sprint into a dark room. A rickety bridge isn't something you carelessly waltz over. Everything is designed around patience and observance. Literally every trap in the game (with one exception) is telegraphed by the environment. You just have to look. Things being able to easily murder you is part of the experience. You don't level up in so much as get better at observing the game and learning mechanics. Stats do matter, sure, but even so your large healthbar isn't a guarantee of your survival. It allows you to make a few more mistakes at best.

I think people that want these games with a lower difficulty slider don't "get it". Virtually every other RPG pumps you full of stats and tells you that you're the chosen one. The leader, the one to rule them all. But you don't really earn it. Every level up makes you stronger while the world remains static, eventually culminating into you dominating based off of pure passive, mathematical advantage. Which I guess is fine for a medium that a lot of people use for escapism. But if that's what you want, then Miyazaki's games aren't for you. You have so many other games to choose from I don't understand why there's such a dreary emphasis on one of the few exceptions.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#193

Post by jterrys »

burnished wrote: post #180
jjj123 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the demands for an easy mode are about accessibility concerns. If you’re working with a motor impairment you may be blocked out of ever playing a souls game. A mode with slower enemies or more forgiving dodge timing would allow those people to experience the game in some form.

I've watched some one beat the game using wired bananas as the input method. The game just does not demand a lot from players in the form of twitch reflex or even particularly precise inputs. Basically, there may not be a accessibility menu but the design is already very accessible.

Considering that boss design is essentially "big ol' fat windup, -with a teeny pause to mess with your reaction times- then slamma-jamma into the ground" then it's pretty solvable. I'm playing Elden Ring and some monsters will basically require you to dodge roll once every 5 seconds or so. With very clear and telegraphed attacks.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#194

Post by wyager »

Trasmatta wrote: post #32
wyager wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> FromSoft has always been a step behind from a graphical fidelity level. But they make up for it in art design, which is some of the best in the industry. I'm not just talking about lack of rendering bells and whistles - I also thought the design itself was tacky, reminiscent of much lower-budget games like Valheim or those mid-2010s f2p Korean MMOs. Admittedly this is subjective. > For the controls, the game is all…

> I'm not just talking about lack of rendering bells and whistles - I also thought the design itself was tacky, reminiscent of much lower-budget games like Valheim or those mid-2010s f2p Korean MMOs. Admittedly this is subjective. Did you make it into Limgrave?

Yeah

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#195

Post by wyager »

calsy wrote: post #131
cameronh90 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like some people are playing a different game to me. There's constant pop-in, flicker and shimmering, the lighting is flat, the textures are low resolution, the meshes are low geometry. Graphically it just sucks, many last generation console games beat it easily. It also has completely crashed the console multiple times. And I'm playing on PS5 which is reportedly the best experience.

PS5 is the best experience? Who said that? What you described sounds bizarre and far removed from most peoples experience (mine included) with the game regardless of platform. How exactly do you know what resolution textures are or how many polygons are rendered.

> How exactly do you know what resolution textures are or how many polygons are rendered.

A couple comments ago you were complaining at me for not being specific about why the rendering was bad, and then when someone gives you specific examples you lash out with "well how do you know that's why it's bad!?". We know because we have eyes.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#196

Post by pavon »

aixi wrote: post #184
ssully wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a difficulty selection doesn't remove anything from the game. Those who want to play on easy can, while those who want the "standard" experience can stick with the regular difficulty. When I play Doom (be it classic, or 2016/Eternal), at a minimum I play on Ultra Violence because I personally think that's how the game is meant to be played. Believe it or not, there are plenty of people that play those games on…

It impacts your experience in the sense that development time was given to balancing different difficulties. Even if the Souls games had a 'no damage taken' mode, for example, there are multiple mechanics where you fall off a cliff and die, and these things would take development time to correct. And again, it would mess with the author's vision on what the ambiance of the games should be like; It's oppressive becaus…

I haven't played Dark Souls, since I'm pretty sure it would be too difficult for me. But from reading what people value of the game, one way that might allow them to adjust difficulty without compromising the spirit is to slow the enemies down. Some of us don't have as good of reaction time and coordination as people who are good at video games, so even if I am carefully watching the game, and thinking about how to approach it, I often times can't execute on that. Games that mix reaction skill with problem solving (like people describe Dark Souls) are the worst because I can never tell for sure if I am approaching incorrectly, need to practice my timing more, or if the game has just hit my fundamental limits.

That said, I have no problem with some games not being made for me. I only state this because the article mentioned Miyazaki wanting to make his games more approachable. I'm curious as to what was done differently in in Elden Ring.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#197

Post by mrtranscendence »

aixi wrote: post #182
aordano wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's debatable; where the «experience» or delivery a game tries to reach, end? Where do we draw the line between considering it a modification of the "soul" of the game? This is an important distinction because a game is much more rich and complex than a book, and has many more axes where things can change. I fathom that for some people the level of punishment is just too much, and maybe that flies in the fac…

> Where do we draw the line between considering it a modification of the "soul" of the game? At this point it is clear difficulty is a staple of the series and the ambiance of all the Souls games. Every time a new game comes out, this complaint is raised by people who don't play the games and Miyazaki has decided not to add these explicit difficulty changing settings, so I think it's evident that its part of the soul…

> If you want a challenge with fantastic ambience, you play a Souls game --- If you don't, you don't want to play Dark Souls

What you seem to be missing is that what counts as "a challenge" will vary from individual to individual. When I argue that soulslikes should have better accessibility options (including difficulty settings) I'm not saying that I want the game to not be challenging -- I'm saying that the difficulty should adapt to meet the players where they are to maintain a challenge for them.

You could say, well, there IS an easy mode; just spend days grinding out levels. That kind of sucks, though.

Also ...

> This is not gatekeeping

[goes on to write a paragraph that could be used as the definition of gatekeeping]

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#198

Post by mrtranscendence »

aixi wrote: post #185
brimble wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People's response times go to shit as they get older. Games without some kind of affordances for that (or just difficulty settings) are much, much harder for older folks than they were intended to be.

People's cognitive capabilities can also degrade as they age. Should every author write easier to comprehend versions of their works because of it? I don't think so. That being said, even with degraded reaction times, every Souls game is completely passable.

> Should every author write easier to comprehend versions of their works because of it?

The tradeoffs are much less clear for prose. That said, outside of fiction writers should absolutely be thinking about accessibility, and should pay attention that they are writing in a way that can be understood by their intended audience (which may include people with cognitive impairment).

Further, if someone who has difficulty with Crime and Punishment wants to read it, there are abridged versions, audiobooks, dramatizations, and other ways to enjoy it.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#199

Post by mrtranscendence »

slothtrop wrote: post #175
Trasmatta wrote: post #7

The popular discourse seems to focus on the difficulty of From's games, but that's just one part of the entire experience. FromSoft has a holistic approach to game design that very few other studios manage to match. There's just an incredible amount of depth to their world building, and the gameplay, difficulty level, online mechanics, level design, characters, music, story, and themes all work to reinforce and compl…

The difficulty is definitely an overstatement. It can be rendered trivial with in-game options, the right build, co-op. The quality that these games have is forcing players to be tactful. It's not a mindless affair, but it doesn't require fast reflexes either to excel either. However, ways to approaching the game are unclear at the outset and they don't hold your hand either, which is a double-edged sword. There is v…

> You have to kind of enjoy not knowing where to go exactly

Honestly, this is why I've never really enjoyed the Dark Souls games. Difficult bosses I'm fine with; I can handle gameplay. But I get lost going to the bathroom. If I leave a game for two days and come back to it I have no idea what I'm doing or where anything is. Without something prodding me in the right direction (or helping me get back to where I was before) it's hard for me to enjoy myself.

There are guides, I suppose, but I find following them tedious.

That said, I'm told Elden Ring has a map, which makes me 100% more interested right there.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#200

Post by aixi »

mrtranscendence wrote: post #197
aixi wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where do we draw the line between considering it a modification of the "soul" of the game? At this point it is clear difficulty is a staple of the series and the ambiance of all the Souls games. Every time a new game comes out, this complaint is raised by people who don't play the games and Miyazaki has decided not to add these explicit difficulty changing settings, so I think it's evident that its part of the soul…

> If you want a challenge with fantastic ambience, you play a Souls game --- If you don't, you don't want to play Dark Souls What you seem to be missing is that what counts as "a challenge" will vary from individual to individual. When I argue that soulslikes should have better accessibility options (including difficulty settings) I'm not saying that I want the game to not be challenging -- I'm saying that the diffic…

>I'm saying that the difficulty should adapt to meet the players where they are to maintain a challenge for them. (...) You could say, well, there IS an easy mode; just spend days grinding out levels. That kind of sucks, though.

That is not the only option. Summon other players. But you understand the contradiction of what you're saying, correct?

>[goes on to write a paragraph that could be used as the definition of gatekeeping]

I think you should rethink what gatekeeping actually is, because I'm not sure you know it. I'm not gatekeeping you out of Grave of the Fireflies if you tell me you don't want to watch a sad movie and I suggest against it. It would be gatekeeping if I said 'if you beat the game with summons you didn't actually beat Dark Souls', and it's not something I would say.

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