Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system • Hacker News Board

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#521

Post by datavirtue » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 5:43 PM UTC

throwaway_dcnt wrote: post #11

The reason for my current user name here at hn was this exact form of racism. It is the first post I made when I created this throwaway. I was assured that my experience was unique and not widespread. I am both sad and happy to see this, sad because it exists, happy because it is getting some attention here at HN. I would like to take this opportunity to point out that everyone of us needs to be vigilant about this t…

It's weird, the implicit bias is sometimes an advantage--or at least it sheilds us from knee jerk discrimination. Being white and clean cut in America has always afforded me a status that I did not enjoy until I was able to move away from where I grew up. There everyone knew my circumstances and kids who were from "better families" excluded me because I was just other. And school...I had to leave before high school, it was unbearable. Surviving the years up til that point nearly crushed my soul.

This caused a lot of anxiety in me and it still does. I suppressed the anxiety through abject narcism.

Once I was able to leave school and eventually move away I was assumed to be of the same class as my other white peers. Privileged, university educated etc. There was constant paranoia of being asked about my background and having to see the look on peoples faces when they asked where I got my degree from.

Again, I mostly floated through life benefitting from the implicit bias of my peers and others. Luckily I was smart and gravitated to tech at a very young age.

To this day I'm still wracked with anxiety at the possibility of discussing my financial situation, upbringing, or education.

Seeing this described as a denial of basic human rights in the article shocked me. I had never even thought about the anxiety objectively, until recently.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#522

Post by datavirtue » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 5:45 PM UTC

mbg721 wrote: post #475

winternett wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the primary things these stories never truly elaborate properly on in the quest to establish social rank out of a caste-based society is that Black Americans, that were native to the US, and even for black migrants to India and other countries, are some of the most affected by caste politics of this kind in employment and work opportunity. Often having darker skin, Black Americans are even prone to more discri…

...Yet, at any company where I've worked, a qualified candidate for a professional position in, say, accounting--who also happens to be black--has HR falling all over themselves in excitement. (The accountant I'm thinking of developed kind of a dark sense of humor in response.) Obsessing over the arbitrary characteristics that originally were used in discrimination doesn't fix it, and never will.

It makes it worse.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#523

Post by datavirtue » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 5:50 PM UTC

pyuser583 wrote: post #349

throwaway_dcnt wrote: post #11

The reason for my current user name here at hn was this exact form of racism. It is the first post I made when I created this throwaway. I was assured that my experience was unique and not widespread. I am both sad and happy to see this, sad because it exists, happy because it is getting some attention here at HN. I would like to take this opportunity to point out that everyone of us needs to be vigilant about this t…

Personally, I’ve much more “empire building” type behavior (let’s hire tons people from my background who will probably support my initiatives), than discrimination against “others.”

GE, is that you?

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#524

Post by dash2 » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 6:02 PM UTC

mama123 wrote: post #463

dash2 wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s all very well but it’s pretty obvious that Dalits get a raw deal in India, and if you don’t think so, then you may just be kidding yourself. Equally, if you think of Muslims as “privileged” under the current BJP government, you need a reality check.

Many Poor muslims just as many poor Indian are now getting electricity, subsidised toilets, zero balance bank accounts, direct benefits transfer for the first time under BJP rule. Many muslim women are for the first time are freed from triple talaq. Their life is certainly far better than the muslims in Pakistan, so much so that many parts of Pakistan are revolting and claiming to want to reunite with India. Whatever…

“The pattern of hate crimes committed against Muslims with seeming impunity – many of them in states where the Bharatiya Janata Party is in power – is deeply worrying. Unfortunately both the Prime Minister and various Chief Ministers have done little to show that they disapprove of this violence”

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2017/06/india-hate-cr...

“ In December, Uttar Pradesh police arbitrarily arrested 10 Muslim men under a law introduced by the Uttar Pradesh Government that targets consensual interfaith marriages, and allegedly tortured them. The legislation, which has been termed the “love jihad” law by right-wing nationalists and leading politicians, had not been approved by the Indian Parliament or the state legislature.”

“ The government accused members of the Muslim Tablighi Jamaat minority of spreading COVID-19, and as a result, health care facilities denied access to Muslims. Instances of hospitals refusing Muslim pregnant women and cancer patients surfaced in April 2020. In the months following the nationwide lockdown of March, social media and WhatsApp groups were flooded with calls for social and economic boycotts of Muslims, alongside fake news stories and other misinformation.”

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/asia-and-the-pacific/sou...

And more. But why multiply examples?

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#525

Post by aatharuv » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 6:31 PM UTC

throwaway_281 wrote: post #366

I would like non-Indian people to know that the caste problem is not uniformly distributed throughout India. In cities like Kolkata, Chennai, and Mumbai- the problem is non-existent. The problem is much more rampant in Northern parts of India. This region is the American south without the good parts. This region ranks the highest in the country for foeticide of girl children. Because the society is deeply patriarchal…

One comment -- in India, there is theoretically the concept of the "creamy layer", sufficiently rich individuals cannot benefit from reservations, though in practice I don't know how well that is implemented.

Another thing is that casteism is _not_ limited to Hinduism in India. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

Look at the matrimonial sections of Indian newspapers -- there are Christians who explicitly look for a Nadar (a caste from Tamil Nadu which has become prosperous in the past century), a Christian Saraswat Brahmin (a caste from Western India including Goa, where the Portuguese only allowed native Christians of Brahmin origin to be Roman Catholic priests).

Sikhs have castes mirroring Hindu castes, even though their religion is explicitly against the caste system.

Indian Muslims have a different caste system, with people claiming an Arab, Persian and Turkish ancestor (and sometimes people of high-caste Hindu origin), at the top, and people of Dalit origin at the bottom.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#526

Post by s_trumpet » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 6:54 PM UTC

gadders wrote: post #429

sanmon3186 wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time such articles pop-up, I wonder what rock am I living under. In 22 years of experience (Half in US/UK and rest in India) in eight global organizations, not even a single time I heard or witnessed any cast based biases. What we regularly see is region/lingustic biases. Cast based discrimination exist in India, but in my experience the issue is overblown in the knowledge industry.

I don't think I've seen it in 20+ years in banking, but I don't know the caste of the Indian people I've worked with. For all I know they could have all been the same caste. Is there a way to tell an Indian's caste? I'm guessing it's impolite to ask.

Surnames are often caste signifiers.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#527

Post by strikelaserclaw » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 7:00 PM UTC

thumbsup-_- wrote: post #356

> A pat on the shoulder might be a friendly greeting—or a search for a sacred thread that some dominant-caste Hindu men wear beneath their shirts I'm a non-dalit Indian working in silicon valley. I know that caste based discrimination is still prevalent in India and not surprised that it continues in here in silicon valley as well amongst Indian community but I'm surprised to read this part in the article. I have nev…

same thing with the children in that kids class all saying they were Brahmin, even in silicon valley where there are a ton of Brahmins, i doubt they make up the majority of Indians.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#528

Post by jonny_eh » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 7:01 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #510

jonny_eh wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody in America has ever been racist to me, therefore racism doesn't exist.

The converse of that is "I've never seen it, therefore it does exist". That would suggest that bigfoot, UFO's and the Loch Ness monster are all real.

Except the article provides concrete examples of it existing.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#529

Post by s_trumpet » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 7:04 PM UTC

belval wrote: post #7

To Indian commenters on HN, how much of that is true? Do you feel threatened when a coworker asks about where you are from? It's something I do ask from time to time (not during interviews obviously, but during lunch for example) out of pure curiosity. Should I stop? I guess that I should explicitly add that I am not from India. Cross-cultural communications can be a bit difficult at times and I'd rather not make blu…

Yes. I'm Indian, lower-caste (not Dalit) with a surname that does not reveal it, working in India. One of my most vivid memories is hearing colleagues at my first job (a large multinational conglomerate) casually use caste slurs (ch*mar) in my presence. Ever since, I never enter discussions about politics or religion. I keep my cards close to my chest.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#530

Post by strikelaserclaw » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 7:05 PM UTC

ThinkingAgain wrote: post #420

thumbsup-_- wrote: post #356

> A pat on the shoulder might be a friendly greeting—or a search for a sacred thread that some dominant-caste Hindu men wear beneath their shirts I'm a non-dalit Indian working in silicon valley. I know that caste based discrimination is still prevalent in India and not surprised that it continues in here in silicon valley as well amongst Indian community but I'm surprised to read this part in the article. I have nev…

Indeed the children introducing themselves in US with their caste is a thing to be highlighted from the article. Really feel bad about what we are teaching our kids. I am in India not in US, but did not expect this even in India today.

That part feels fake to me, not only due to all other kids being brahmin (which statistically from my experience as an Indian American feels very off), but most Indian Americans don't really care that much about caste, most know it but they don't know enough to be "proud" of it.