Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system • Hacker News Board

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#461

Post by naijaboiler » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 12:40 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #443

winternett wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the primary things these stories never truly elaborate properly on in the quest to establish social rank out of a caste-based society is that Black Americans, that were native to the US, and even for black migrants to India and other countries, are some of the most affected by caste politics of this kind in employment and work opportunity. Often having darker skin, Black Americans are even prone to more discri…

> Often having darker skin, Black Americans are even prone to more discrimination domestically. Any editorial that doesn't recognize that fact as a truth has no legs to stand on in my opinion. Nigerian immigrants outperform most domestic US groups. So clearly "skin color" isn't the main factor (if at all).

No post body was provided.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#462

Post by twic » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 12:59 PM UTC

throwaway_dcnt wrote: post #11

The reason for my current user name here at hn was this exact form of racism. It is the first post I made when I created this throwaway. I was assured that my experience was unique and not widespread. I am both sad and happy to see this, sad because it exists, happy because it is getting some attention here at HN. I would like to take this opportunity to point out that everyone of us needs to be vigilant about this t…

> One thing I recommend to my hiring managers is to not allow people from frictioned backgrounds to manage and interview people from the other side.

Great - as a British person, this gets me out of conducting interviews entirely!

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#463

Post by mama123 » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 1:03 PM UTC

dash2 wrote: post #455

mama123 wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much of what the English speaking elite in India & much of the west consumes as a theory on caste is a handiwork of a colonial-evangelist mission. So much of it has to be taken with a boatload of salt. Since it is politically incorrect to challenge the established views, one simply has to rely on ones own observation. Especially if they are missing the woods for the trees on these debates. It is very much in line wit…

That’s all very well but it’s pretty obvious that Dalits get a raw deal in India, and if you don’t think so, then you may just be kidding yourself. Equally, if you think of Muslims as “privileged” under the current BJP government, you need a reality check.

Many Poor muslims just as many poor Indian are now getting electricity, subsidised toilets, zero balance bank accounts, direct benefits transfer for the first time under BJP rule. Many muslim women are for the first time are freed from triple talaq.

Their life is certainly far better than the muslims in Pakistan, so much so that many parts of Pakistan are revolting and claiming to want to reunite with India.

Whatever your claims of muslim persecution is mostly manufactured. In may ways the more radical elements are testing the limits of the patience of the citizens. I wish India would follow the west and start De-Arabising the muslim population, after all each community has their unique dress and culture.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#464

Post by frontman1988 » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 1:04 PM UTC

programmer_dude wrote: post #431

russelldjimmy wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps if something doesn’t make sense, ask for clarity instead of asserting that changing one’s surname makes zero difference. I am also familiar with many upper-caste people who have changed their surname to something generic (like Kumar) to avoid revealing their caste. This doesn’t just apply to job seeking in private enterprises. They do this to avoid any kind of attention drawn to their surname, and hence caste…

They change their surname so that they can weasle into quotas reserved for the repressed class. You are not fooling anybody Mr. Kumar.

Changing surname doesn't change caste certificate. Otherwise millions of people would be turning into lower castes

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#465

Post by programmer_dude » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 1:08 PM UTC

frontman1988 wrote: post #464

programmer_dude wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They change their surname so that they can weasle into quotas reserved for the repressed class. You are not fooling anybody Mr. Kumar.

Changing surname doesn't change caste certificate. Otherwise millions of people would be turning into lower castes

> Changing surname

Is just the first step. Bribing the right authorities is next.

> Otherwise millions of people would be turning into lower castes

How do you know they aren't already?

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#466

Post by mama123 » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 1:15 PM UTC

random314 wrote: post #377

mama123 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically peoples names included their village name, son of x and their caste/jaati - which indicated their profession or specialization. That meant getting new business when introducing themselves in the neighboring village. This is true with European names too (masson, taylor, carpenter, miller ....), and has the exact same origin. However, today due to the politicization first by the colonialists and the church…

This has to the most contrived and ridiculous comment I have seen. Virtually all Brahmins proudly advertise their caste and their caste is also obvious from their last name. There is literally no need to pat their backs.

Not everyone has to be a David or John or a Mohamed or Abdulla.

India is a diverse country with many subcultures, each with their own unique traditions dating back many thousands of years.

Why should everyone loose their unique identity?

Why should people not be proud of their identity or uniqueness?

A lot of privileges that the "Brahmins" have can be mostly attributed to the fact that they were not competing with the colonial interests like business and were used as native informants and peons & clerks.

This gave them a head start compared to the rest of the population who were reduced to penury and in many case ended up as substitutes for black slavery in the form of bonded labourers.

So in using the caste card people are covering up the devastating effects of colonisation.

The privileges held by the colonising classes and collaborators, esp. Christians as they gobbled up enormous amounts of state resources, temple lands in the form colonial grants and 99 year lease to the church. Yet it is politically incorrect to point out these privileges.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#467

Post by berdario » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 1:16 PM UTC

int_19h wrote: post #305

berdario wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's your opinion, most people probably disagree. A common way to define racism is: negative prejudice + power (The same can be done for sexism, though obviously on different characteristics) From that point of view, making sure that a marginalized candidate is also interviewed by at least one member of the same marginalized community, if possible, is neither racist nor sexist. (Because you're not negatively discri…

It really isn't a common way to define it. The colloquial definition of racism is still racial prejudice, regardless of power. This is also the way it was used historically - both W.E.B. DuBois and MLK referred to "black racists", for example. It was redefined to "... + power" after the Civil Rights Era, but it didn't really catch up outside of the more academic social justice circles.

About MLK, I presume you're referring to this quote:

"We must never substitute a doctrine of Black supremacy for white supremacy"

That's fair, but we're talking about ensuring that the interview process is not discriminatory. I.e. having some extra safeguards for marginalized people (safeguards which are not needed for those in power), a special process that you could maybe define akin to "positive discrimination" vs negative discrimination...

And MLK was totally in favour of that:

"society that has done something special against the Negro for hundreds of years must now do something special for the Negro."

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#468

Post by zozbot234 » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 1:17 PM UTC

throwaway_281 wrote: post #366

I would like non-Indian people to know that the caste problem is not uniformly distributed throughout India. In cities like Kolkata, Chennai, and Mumbai- the problem is non-existent. The problem is much more rampant in Northern parts of India. This region is the American south without the good parts. This region ranks the highest in the country for foeticide of girl children. Because the society is deeply patriarchal…

It seems misleading to call Smriti "scripture" in the sense that's understood in the West. They're texts/literature connected to religion in some loose sense but encompass all sorts of subjects, are full of contradictory claims, and were never seen as exempt from criticism and revision, particularly over long spans of time and changing social customs. Nobody here is denying that some Hindus have historically endorsed and practiced caste discrimination; the meaningful debate is whether these things are representative of Hinduism itself, as in the religion and belief system.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#469

Post by mama123 » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 1:20 PM UTC

random314 wrote: post #407

mama123 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The movie is quite controversial as it twists reality to target and tarnish specific castes. The perpetrators in real life were Christians but portrayed as Hindus. The Hindu villagers who in real life helped the victim seek justice are portrayed as casteists who hinder justice. A lot of literature, news articles and movies are made to exacerbate the problem and create problems where none exist.

No the police and state apparatus was upper caste hindu. One of the police officers was Christian - no one else.

Two of the main perpetrators were christians, the movie deliberately substituted it with names and symbolism connected to a specific caste with the intent of falsely sowing discord between the communities while whitewashing the Christian angle.

Thanks to social media, this deliberate twisting of facts has come to light, but much of these stories manufactured by the evangelical groups as equally ridiculous as with Christian persecution or Caste atrocities.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#470

Post by andybak » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 1:37 PM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #334

berdario wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's your opinion, most people probably disagree. A common way to define racism is: negative prejudice + power (The same can be done for sexism, though obviously on different characteristics) From that point of view, making sure that a marginalized candidate is also interviewed by at least one member of the same marginalized community, if possible, is neither racist nor sexist. (Because you're not negatively discri…

> A common way to define racism is: negative prejudice + power This is an idiotic way to define racism that makes it completely subjective to give the wielding accuser of racism to be highly discriminatory while claiming not to be bad.

Idiotic or not, it's widespread in academia.

And some would argue that there are fairly objective ways to define "power"

Personally I'm on the fence about these definitions but it annoys me to see people dismiss them as "idiotic" without engaging with the level of serious thought that has been put into them by sincere people.

Disagree once you've spent a day or two surveying the subject. Or even an hour or two.